62/65 # 101361 Ezekiel thats the way to From: WARRIOR OF THE SON on Tue Apr 11 10:38pm Say it. If you strive to reach perfection you will never be happy. Because it is impossible. The only person who is perfect is God. And S'Talon what can you really loose by trying prayer. Look if I am wrong(which I know I am not)you wouldnt have lost anything. But if I am right you have gained the Kingdom of Heaven!! 63/65 # 101365 Hmm.. From: JIMI on Tue Apr 11 11:30pm In my message I didn't state that there wasn't a God... I think you need Reading Comprehension please reread my post...... 64/65 # 101391 Indirectly, yes you did! From: EZEKIEL on Wed Apr 12 1:50pm Jimi:You didn't come right out and say that God doesn't exist. However, your logic leaves out the possibility that God could exist and be in control of the universe. For example, you said the universe is run by chaos and chance. That doesn't leave much for God, does it? Also, by saying there is no such thing as perfection, you are eliminating God. How? God is a perfect being by His own admission. Do you know God personally to be able to say whether He is or is not perfect? If you say He is not perfect, one of you two (you and God) is a liar. So, you tried to eliminate God (maybe not intentionally) through faulty logic. Again, I encourage you to go ask God Himself about this. If He's real as I say, He's quite capable of defending Himself if He chooses to. 65/65 # 101398 Ezekiel.. From: FIRE ESCAPE on Wed Apr 12 2:33pm I agree with your point that the Real God is perfect and in control, but I can also see where other people might look at the universe (decaying from sin) and see the chaos that is is BECOMING and pattern a "god" of their own choosing after what they see. They see chaos and imperfection in man and universe and logically believe that the ultimate higher power is of like condition. Where I think we are failing to communicate is that you and I are talking about a personal Biblical God that is not affected by the sin in the universe, while others are taling about what they perceive to be divine, most likely an impersonal force or law that oversees life. I think we might want to examine why people perceive God as these other things, and why they reject the Bible as accurate divine revelation. As I have had pointed out to me millions of times, unless one is willing to accept the Bible as fact, then where is the point of argueing from it? Perhaps it would be more fruitful to discuss what people perceive as shortcomings in the Bible. It has been my personal experience that what I perceived as error was actually a lack of understanding on my own part. And if we look at it and find we are justified in our views, what have we lost? Nothing. What have we gained? Wisdom. God's wisdom is not secret, it is open for all to know and have through Jesus Christ. 57/61 # 101408 Ok, From: S'TALON on Wed Apr 12 4:50pm You are all mentioning the Bible supports what you beleive in. So, what supports the bible. Itself. Sorry, but that's circular logic and not valid. And also you said God is perfect, becuase he said so. Again, circular logic. Just becuase something says something about itself doesn't mean its true. It has to be backed up by proof. Also, how do you know that Jimi doesn't beleive in a deity. He may not beleive in YOUR deity, but from what I know, he has a Higher Power, that has a history just as dynmaic and personal as yours, if not more so. Also, a challenge to the thumpers. Question everything. And find answers to those. That is the only true path to knowledge, questioning and experimentation. From: YAMABUSHI on Wed Apr 12 8:22pm wazzat is the ultimat question® Look folks, I luv yall, but sometimes I run out of time..... From: CHRISSY on Thu Apr 13 5:39pm If GOd is capable of defending himself, then why do you need to do it, and why doesn't he come down and BBS and tell us this? Just Chrissy From: BARFING CAT ()]|-) on Fri Apr 14 1:33am What Jimi was trying to convey is that Chaos is a natural occurence, and natural force in the universe. My belief is basically this "Chaos sets the pace for change". Think of the universe as a giant pool of water, and with each action you make someone throws a rock into the water... It creates waves, thus chaos, and has a more far reaching effect than the area that the rock was origionally thrown into. Thus chaos would be a more likely occurence than synchronicity. From: FIRE ESCAPE on Fri Apr 14 11:46am But you picked a bad example. When a rock hits water it creates symetrical waves that emmanate from the center of the disturbance in a ordered and designed way, it doesn't resemble "chaos" at all. I do agree that we all effect the people and enviroment about us, but chaos is not a constructive force, rather it's destructive. Order and design are what maintains life and God is the maintainer of this force. Without that power to maintain order, the destructive influence of evil and chaos would soon destroy everything, it's self destructive. Why doesn't God come down and BBS and tell us everything? Mainly because God is Spirit and he has already come in our "form" (humanity) and taught us what we need to know. Now he dwells within those who are His and influences the world he loves through their obediance. God is here, and he is not far from any one of us, and he can be met and known if we just seek Him® - Fire Escape 47/55 # 101560 It looks even From: YAMABUSHI on Fri Apr 14 3:28pm but the rock that was thrown (action that was taken) probably wasnt symmetrical(well thought out) therefore under the water there is chaos and the wave of other rocks collide causing more. 48/55 # 101603 ... From: BARFING CAT ()]|-) on Sat Apr 15 7:30am The very ripples in the water from the rock being thrown indicate chaos. When the water is calm there is order. When the rock is thrown and the water is pushed aside (thus waves are created) the "Chaos" of the ripples is set into motion... The waves will go out, and will also come back in and be effected by not only the shape of the rock that was thrown, the direction, speed of the rock, tempature of the water, the *total land masses* surrounding the water, the floor of the pool, and many many many many other factors... However, it was the one act of Chaos that set this all into motion -- This being the throwing of the rock into the pool.. The 'energy of motion' 'force'. Now, there is "motion", -- this demonstrated by the waves in the water --, and as all of these waves reach the edge of "land" they will then be effected by the shape of the land (creating even more chaotic patterns in the waves), and then the waves will collide with each other (This being as the origional force went outward, then collides with the land mass, and starts comming back in it will collide with the "chaos/energy" that still hasn't come in contact with the land mass).... Thus for one action, a rock thrown in a pool, you have created magnitudes of chaos for the entire body of the pool. 49/55 # 101609 there is no randomness From: CHILDHOOD TRAUMA on Sat Apr 15 10:37am just things not fully understood. The rock example is of all knows, the force of the throw, the pattern of the ripples, the cause and effect. The only thing bc is holding from us is the thrower of the rock. Perhaps he wants it to be chaos, perhaps fe wants it to be god. The act is to trivial for either. Man is the only stone thrower... 50/55 # 101787 One way that your "Circle" From: IRONMAN on Mon Apr 17 8:05am of logic is broken , S'Talon, is by the Holy Spirit. Read the Bible. Open your heart. Listen . To him who knocks, the door will be opened. 51/55 # 101795 Hm.. From: JIMI on Mon Apr 17 11:43am Looks real interesting guys.. Now, Yes I do believe in a higher power and many of them.. I have a God and a Goddess. I have both Positive and Negitive forces in my religion.. I have A Male and a Female side to my God.. Far, if you put both of them together than you have your concept of a Asexual God.. Of course my religion Quabbalistically based but, than again is yours.. (of course that is another debate).. I see Nature itself as a state of Constant Order which I would to as Rota (The Wheel of Life) Ezekiel's Wheel in the Sky would be the idea.. Since his book is full of Quabbalistic Symbolism.. Now upon this Wheel of Life is the grease which is called Chaos, Law of Averages, Free Will, Murphy's Law.. If there wasn't some friction the wheel wouldn't spin and life would become predictiable and very set and to much like a simulation far a computer... Right On.. HVL and LVNH!! 52/55 # 101810 THE PROBLEM From: CAVE MAN on Mon Apr 17 2:31pm I have with the Bible, is the same one i have with it's fans. Other than circling logic there are no answers. If i compare the Bible with a tree, the tree clearly displays harmony and balance with the universe. No part of it is untrue or conflicts with any other part. Since the Bible is only a representation, it doesnt even resemble the truth by itself. Instead it has to be interpreted. Now, granted my interpretation of the tree may be no better than my interpretation of the Bible, but the tree remains a tree, the Bible remains a translation. 53/55 # 101862 I thought "Chaos" From: THE PRODIGAL SON on Mon Apr 17 10:55pm was that bad guy spy group on "Get Smart". Remember Zigfried? 54/55 # 101882 I thought From: S'TALON on Tue Apr 18 2:05am Chaos, was a part of a user's handle here, who also plays for Agnus Tweed. 55/55 # 101902 CHAOS.... From: EZEKIEL on Tue Apr 18 12:09pm Definition of 'chaos' as defined in Webster's New World Dictionary: EXTREME CONFUSION OR DISORDER. If chaos was really prevalent in the example given in previous posts about the ripples from the rock thrown in the water, how come the poster was able to describe the process whereby the waves went from point A to point B and back again? That implies some kind of order. It only seems chaotic because we don't know exactly what will happen when we throw the rock in. But we do know that the rock will produce waves in a recognizable pattern. In true chaos, throwing the rock might produce ducks swimming around just as much as it might produce waves. However, the universe IS tending more towards chaos. If the universe is naturally chaotic, how did it come to be so orderly in the first place? It had to be orderly in the first place in order for it to be tending toward chaos! Here's the definition of 'orderly': WELL-BEHAVED; LAW ABIDING We have laws in this universe which are still in effect to this day. You step in front of a moving car, you get hit. You step off a cliff, you fall. So how do you account for chaos? The Laws of Thermodynamics, which say the universe is tending toward chaos. The Bible gives us the answer as to why the universe is tending toward chaos. SIN!! About the comment regarding the tree and the Bible. Number one: both are from the same source. Number two: you are oversimplifying. So you don't understand the Bible? Does a young child or infant understand a physics textbook? He might say that because he can't understand it, it's garbage, without seriously studying it to test it first. I bet none of you have ever seriously studied the Bible with a Christian on this BBS to really find out whether we are right or wrong. You cannot accuse us of not listening to your viewpoint. We've already been where you are. You haven't been where we are. So, who wants to take up the challenge of seriously studying the Bible to see how it holds up to your thinking? We are willing to help you to test it, free of charge. Ezekiel 45/51 # 101945 The description From: YAMABUSHI on Tue Apr 18 9:21pm was very vague® It cant be disputed. 46/51 # 101978 This is getting old From: S'TALON on Wed Apr 19 3:05pm the thumpers keep on saying the same old thing over and over for nearly 3 years (Yes, this bloody prostelyzing has gone on for that long). I'm sick of arguing with a bunch of drone slaves sent out from Project BBS. If you wish to give up your freedom, then listen to them. If you wish to keep it, then find answers for yourself. I, for one, am not going to waste anymore time on arguing with preacher-sent drones on here. I have better things to do with my time. This is my last post on this subbie, unless one of these thumpers post something that absolutley is ridiculous or one of them libels me or one of my friends. Otherwise, its off to the more useful parts of this BBS. 47/51 # 102010 S'Talon From: WARRIOR OF THE SON on Wed Apr 19 9:17pm To tell you the truth I am sick of talking to people like you. You are like talking to a brick wall nothing gets in your head. 48/51 # 102022 Thumpers... From: TEMPEST on Wed Apr 19 10:33pm S'Talon, Actually, the prosytelizing has been taking place for several centuries. Some do so in love and temperance, others do so in aggression and self-righteousness. Of course, we see that many of the same issues are beaten to death -- but of course, such is human nature. The argument and conflict is a result of the less tolerant members of both sides (all sides). Generalizations and categorizations do nothing to solve the problem. Generalization is the root of ignorance and predjudice. Each of us are individuals, some misguided, some superficial, but all of us are unique creations. We do not deserve to be generalized and categorized like various brands of meat, no matter how much some may seem like blind sheep. Keep in mind that everyone acts and thinks as they do for reasons. They do as they continue to do because of past experiences and feelings. We CAN NOT authorianly pidgeon-hole people in positions were it is convienient for us to dehumanize, depersonalize, and then demoralize these INDIVIDUALS; such is a path of destruction, in which we, not they, are denying there freedom of choice and will. 49/51 # 102056 which has little From: YAMABUSHI on Thu Apr 20 4:53pm to do with anything® This "discussion" has never worked because the "thumper" group and the devout faithful with some sense refuse to look at the other side-ours- with enough of an open mind. There are some (tempest) who were athiests and converted, I know. This I dont comprehend unless the right information was missinç so, in order to get somewhere, the religious group must look without judging at the fact based side and see that it is as it is. and see that they have fact based views to, but critical ones required not a Shred of evidence. Yama "its rough tryin to be objective, I didnt do it very well, methinx" bushi 50/51 # 102077 Look From: WARRIOR OF THE SON on Thu Apr 20 9:08pm I have looked at the other side. And it just isnt me. I believe in God nothing will change. That may sound stubborn, but it is the truth my faith is strong it wont be changed. Dont take thats as being stubborn and narrow-minded cause it isnt. I just believe and I dont see how it can change. Cause my life is so much better with God.