69/74 # 100311 ... From: BARFING CAT ()]|-) on Thu Mar 30 5:27pm And if you are wrong, FE? And your God doesn't turn out to be the saviour? And doesn't turn out to be the only true God? Contemplate it... 70/74 # 100333 . From: S'TALON on Thu Mar 30 11:45pm FE- If your religon is so perfect, why is there so many evil clerics/ministers in fundamentalist churches. Think about it, if your path is so good, then why do you send out missionaries to knock on doors, why do you have to try and censor everything your church doesn't happen to like, and why is so many of your leaders so hypocritical. (ie Swaggert, Bakker, and probably 95% of the rest of thumper clerics) Almost every thumper cleric I've met came off so fake, begs for money, drives expensive cars, and doesn't practice about half of what they preach. 71/74 # 100496 Hmm... From: JIMI on Sun Apr 2 4:55am Now... Now... People everyone knows that with ANY religion you will have some people who are slime. You will have the Jimmy Farwell's and the Jimmy Swaggert's leading the Right-Wing and Neo-Nazi's leading the Left-Handed Brainless Resistance... You are asking people to interpret a book that was written 10,000 years ago ( just a time interval for reasons of debate not correct) and has been rewritten 20-30 times in 15 languages. It has been reanalized and rediciphered and plaguerized and misinterpretted and everything else. You will find that most religions are founded on 1 ultimite truth and 1 bogus lie.. Christianity is not a exception and neither is Judiaism and neither are the Pagan Religions. Now with all this to add on as facts you will have poor selling geeks and showmen like these Televangilists and people making a mockery of any religion.. I liked your ideas S'Talon but, why the psuedo-D&D style and or definitions?? 72/74 # 100617 Well, S'Talon. From: IRONMAN on Mon Apr 3 12:37am Why must we send out missionaries knocking on doors? Surely you know the answer to that don't you? I mean REALLY know the answer, not some cliche. You're familiar with the Bible: you know what it says about this® And 95 percent of clerics hypocritical? Driving big fancy cars.I'm sorry that you haven't been able to associate with those clerics who aren't hypocritical, who don't drive Cadillacs® Are there clerics who are hypocrits? You better believe it. Are there clerics who are liars? You better believe it. Are there clerics who are cheats? You better believe it. Are you supposed to establish a personal relationship with THEM, though, or with GOD ? 73/74 # 100669 IF I RECALL From: YAMABUSHI on Mon Apr 3 7:45pm The bible says that any who approach the lord may be saved. It also says that the word should be spread. Now, That is contradictory. Ya cant approach thru free will of someone comes after you. My Bggedt qualm is that missions destroy the culture that is present. Such stuff shouldnt happen. Our morals arent thiers, so if they head-hunt- we should let em. Who are we to say??¿ SeehwutImean¿ Yama "sickly" bushi 74/74 # 100729 Replies.. From: FIRE ESCAPE on Tue Apr 4 12:42pm Right on Ironman: You will find shucksters in any denomination, any religion, and even in Christianity you will still find people playing some plastic Jesus game for their benefit, that is their choice, and personally, if you ask me, I think anyone who isn't objective enough to examine the scriptures for themself and compare the "fruit" and "teaching" of these charlatans with the Word of God, deseves to reap what they sow, or in this case, lose what they donate. God has told us to be WISE STEWARDS of our money, Are we gonna go and blame God everytime we are too lazy or apathetic to double check the servant or the teaching with the owerner's manual?? I don't think it's fair to blame God for our own shortcommings. As for evangelism, Sure once people realize their inability to justify themselves and open their eyes and see God's loving provision in Jesus, they will be drawn to Him, but before that, people ae by nature apathetic or fearful of what they instictively know it there and that they are not right with that entity. This is why we have a ministry of reconciliation. We are commanded as believers to declare openly to the world that God desires a relationship with them, see Matthew 28:18-20 and 2nd Corinthians 5:17-20. As for the customs of the world as Yama pointed out..."Be not conformed to the ways of the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind in Christ Jesus.." - Romans 12:2. Fire Escape 55/68 # 100741 Does that give From: YAMABUSHI on Tue Apr 4 2:01pm us the right to uproot and destroy culture that may be better than our own?? I think not. I hope not. A mere Bible verse holds no water. I can see higher meaning to that quote, much more worldly and useful than "look to god, not to earthly things". If ya ask me thats a horrible thing to do® God is the greatest foul-up (next to cutting rain forests) we have ever made® -Yama 56/68 # 100754 Very amusing... From: TEMPEST on Tue Apr 4 5:20pm Evangelism in the sense of destroying individuality and heritage, yes, this can be considered wrong. In instances where industry has destroyed nature, cultures, and ways of life--yes, this is wrong. But to say that stopping headhunters from their murders, putting an end to unethical practices like incest and thievery, and educating people to appreciate other cultures rather than dehumanizing them--yes, this is correct. Lame argument, using a small pocket society that is unethical and genocidal. The method of critique must be applied to all aspects and all types of societies, not just that portion which will discredit the opposition. Too much a priori and selective reasoning going on. Those headhunters for instance, they destroy the culture of (not to mention th lives of) their neighbors, and are therefore in violation of ethical behavior. Evangelism is sharing the Love of Christ and making known the Gospel of Salvation by Jesus Christ. Each person has the Choice thereafter, once they have heard the message, it is their perogative to accept the gift of Grace at any time® Governmental regulations are the enactment and enforcement of laws to regulate unethical behavior. The position of governments is to organize the people into a united body, purging or correcting those elements that are genocidal in nature. 57/68 # 100773 Sctuff From: S'TALON on Tue Apr 4 7:48pm Yes, Christianity has destroyed much orginal culture. I don't see many Indians running around anymore. In the South, the churches promoted slavery and after the Yankee armies stopped that, they promoted bigotry and "Jim Crow" laws. In Africa, they attempted to Westernize people against their will. Missionaries instigated the Opium War in China. In Japan, the Shogun eventually outlawed foreigners except the Dutch (Who beleived in honest trade vs. stealing from the people via missionary protectivia tactics) to save his country from foreign domination® Christian churches have a pretty bad record, especially missionaries. Like I said, FE and the rest of your project BBS people, the record of your churches throughout history is not exemplary, and missionaries have been responsible for more destruction than all the armies in the past 2000 years combined. Religon cuases more wars than the peace it proclaims, and the chief reason why is people like you won't let off the damn prostelyzing and let people worship as they please¡ -S'Talon 58/68 # 100777 god From: CHILDHOOD TRAUMA on Tue Apr 4 9:48pm This is one side bar I just can not stand. And I may have helped push it along. Religion has done no more or less harm to significant cultures than any other export of the following types: religion, philosophy, politics, economics, science, et. al. Take a look at the little culture killer we know called "capitalism". Destructive force far greater than christianity... 59/68 # 100791 ETHNOCETRICITY From: CAVE MAN on Wed Apr 5 4:08am Thats the word they use to describe sombody(or group of folks) that think that someone else's culture is wrong because it fails to measure up to the standards of THIER culture. If youou believe that you are right by virtue of your beliefs, then you would logically agree that the Romans were right about killing Childrens. Even the Nazis KNEW they were right. What more do you have to offer? 60/68 # 100820 AH! From: YAMABUSHI on Wed Apr 5 2:54pm Why couldnt I think of that word yesterday?¿ Too hot under the collar I guess® Its hard to avoid. Especially when is is coupled with a religion that is well and widely accepted. 61/68 # 100834 Hmmm... From: TEMPEST on Wed Apr 5 4:59pm Childhood Trauma speaks up against the foul dog called Capitalism. Aha, seems that we are getting somewhere. And would anyone venture to guess what system most of the advantageous "missionary" types were in, economic system that is, that's right, as is true today, the love of material wealth is the root of all sorts of evil. Materialism is prevelant in mercantilism, capitalism, and the human ego. And if the money grubbing were not enough to get you down, there's the militaristic, self-righteous, authoritarian, or decadent. Oh well, so much for the inherent goodness of man. 62/68 # 100856 So much From: YAMABUSHI on Wed Apr 5 10:59pm So before the Apple Adam and Eve were fu*ked then too?¿ Wishing I could re-read yer mail for better replies. 63/68 # 100858 Yama From: TEMPEST on Wed Apr 5 11:07pm Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit (not apple) from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they lived in paradise, and God called it "very good". I think that God knew what was up, sort of like letting your children learn on their own. It is a sticky, complicated subject--the Nature of Creation--but I see that before The Fall, Adam and Eve were the sinless image of God. But, they were NOT created divine, by their own choice, in search of a perfection they could call their own, they left the true perfection of God. The original sin was one of Pride, they desired to be like God. 64/68 # 100884 huh? From: YAMABUSHI on Thu Apr 6 7:45am better go over that again® Left the true perfection to seek true perfection. thats how I saw it.... 65/68 # 100910 It said... From: TEMPEST on Thu Apr 6 4:24pm they left the True perfection of God to seek a perfection of their own manufacture, which is impossible. They are created, not pre-existant, beings and therefore can not achieve perfection without a pre-existant, perfect source. It is a theological impossibility. (That made no sense, disregard the last part) 66/68 # 100920 . From: YAMABUSHI on Thu Apr 6 9:51pm I THINK not. 67/68 # 100927 . From: S'TALON on Thu Apr 6 11:20pm You said it was a theological impossibilty, that doesn't mean it's a scientifically wrong possibility though, Just becuase something doesn't fit into your idea of theologically perfect, doesn't mean its a bad idea. 68/68 # 100947 S'Talon... From: TEMPEST on Fri Apr 7 6:21am I'd like it differently, but oh well. Science can not percieve or concieve of perfection, so it is therefore a theological concept. Until otherwise known, perfection and the nature of perfection remains within the theological realm. 57/65 # 101262 C'mon From: WARRIOR OF THE SON on Mon Apr 10 7:40pm guys are we awake over here anymore. Is anybody here??????????????????? 58/65 # 101264 I am here... From: TEMPEST on Mon Apr 10 8:28pm what would you like to talk about? 59/65 # 101278 Science and Humanity.. From: JIMI on Tue Apr 11 1:44am The reason why science can't percieve perfection because it doesn't exsist in nature itself. It is only a man-made concept and doesn't exsist except within one's one mind. If you can show me perfection, I would really enjoy seeing perfection in this world. If perfection exsisted the "wheel of Life" (Rota) would cease to revolve and would soon stop. It is Chaos and Chance that keep the cycle working.. Of course this is one way to look at it. Another name for Caos is the "Law of Averages"... 60/65 # 101285 But it won't From: S'TALON on Tue Apr 11 3:54am stop becuase we mortals are not perfect, nor can we ever be. We strive for spirtual progress, not spirtual perfection. 61/65 # 101299 Subject to discuss: From: EZEKIEL on Tue Apr 11 4:34pm Warrior and Tempest, Want a good subject to discuss? How about the Good News? Jimi: You want to see perfection? You won't find it in this universe, you're right about that. Even the Bible admits that the universe is imperfect. However, perfection doDOES exist apart from the universe. The Bible tells us that God is perfect. The Bible also tells us why our universe is imperfect. It's because of sin. Also, because the universe is imperfect, the universe is slowly deteriorating according to the Laws of Thermodynamics, one of which states that the universe is slowly becoming more chaotic. Again, the Bible supports this scientific fact. Science knows what is happening or maybe even how, but not why. More and more scientists are beginning to realize that the universe is too complex to run by itself. Without evidence on your part, you are getting on very thin ground by stating that because the universe is imperfect, there can be no God. If you would like to know why I believe God is real, I can show you in the Bible where the reality of God is proven without contradicting known scientific facts (not scientific assumptions, mind you!). If you are sincere in finding the truth, I challenge you to ask God to reveal Himself to you, even if you don't believe in Him now. If He's real, He'll hear you and respond eventually. If He's not real, you haven't lost anything by asking Him to reveal Himself. Make sense? This goes for anybody else on this subbie. Try it! He answered me. So now, either I am a liar, deceived or telling the truth. Which am I? I have no gain from lying to you. If I am deceived, I'm in poor shape and my life will be a waste just like yours will be. After all, what is there after death if I'm wrong? If I'm right, then you have to consider the consequences of not believing what I say. S'talon: What is the point of spiritual progress if you don't have a goal, especially if, as you say, spiritual perfection is impossible. Imperfect spiritual beings have imperfect perceptions. So don't rely too heavily on what you see. Might lead you into dangerous territory, if it hasn't already!!