58/58 # 99081   Good points..
From: FIRE ESCAPE on Fri Mar 17 12:24am

  Sounds oddly enough like your average Bible Study group to me Tal. But 
I agree that it is good to fellowship, to have people that you can go to 
to confess, to encourage, not to have to play some religious game with. 
This is the purest form of worship. Loving each other as Christ has 
loved us. I hope you find what you are looking for.
               Slave to Christ, the truest freedom...  - Fire Escape

59/59
From: CHRISSY on Fri Mar 17  2:46am

Alot of good points made in the above posts...want to comment on one 
point...I am not sure if I believe in the same god as the christian god, 
or should I say the christians don't believe in the god I believe in...I 
have been to many different faiths and churches trying to find one that 
I felt was consistant with what I truly feel, not what I want in a 
religion but what I feel should be a religion...I haven't found one 
yet...all seem to preach and pass the collection plate, many of them 
seem to have the right idea in the beginning and such but greed and 
corruption have ruined it along with man made rules and regulations.  
They all seem so closed minded as if this is the one way and only way to 
a higher plane of exsistance.  I do enjoy going when it is a childrens 
mass or such cause then it seems that there is more community involved 
and spontianity, love and good will. But I still don't believe what may 
or may not be said... I think that the most important thing is not who 
you pray to at night but that you believe in what you are doing. It is 
the faith in something that gets you through this world..I believe in a 
power that is everywhere, in all of us if we open up to it, I believe 
that you can channel that power in yourself to do good, I believe that 
when you are with the young people they have that power and you can feel 
it-they haven't been corrupted by what "religion" they are being brought 
up in..I am starting to stray from my point so I will close...Chrissy

55/64 # 99133   Many good comments,
From: THE PRODIGAL SON on Fri Mar 17  8:04am

I'll try my best to address them:

Yamabushi, I strongly agree with what you said about the idea that 
(Christians) mustn't associate with the Godless.  You are right, that is 
a ludicrous idea!  Some of Jesus' last words to us were, "Go and make 
disciples of all nations...".  Well, that requires associating with the 
Godless!  You can't very well tell people about Jesus if you aren't 
associating with them!  Thanks for bringing that point up, Yama.  It's 
well worth mentioning.  In my opinion, and some may consider me 
"close-minded" for saying this, I believe that any person who calls 
themself a Christian, but DOESN'T associate with (Godless) people to 
tell them about God's Love is neglecting Jesus' final commandment.

Nikademus, I also think you were right on target about the PTL thingie.  
Jesus said, "My house will be called a house of prayers, but you are 
making it a den of robbers!" when he threw the moneychangers out of the 
temple.  Comparing the PTL people to the moneychangers in the temple may 
be even more appropriate than you thought, when you look at how much 
questionable merchandising went on through PTL.  No doubt, PTL has 
committed a great disservice to people, and unfortunately has caused 
grief for honest, honorable Christian ministries.

I'll continue in the next post, as this one is getting rather long.

56/64 # 99134   Continued:
From: THE PRODIGAL SON on Fri Mar 17  8:22am

S'Talon, true, there are many - too many - churches that have gone 
"lukewarm" these days.  That is the main reason I like the church I go 
to.  Group involvement is encouraged.  Yes, we have a leader, but he is 
not a "dictator"; rather, he guides the discussion while allowing anyone 
who has a question or a comment to share their thoughts.  I agree that 
there is much to learn when several people share their views as opposed 
to just one person doing all the talking.

Finally, Chrissy, in regard to a couple of things you said, I think you 
might like how my church handles the matters of which you spoke.  About 
the "preaching and then passing the collection plate", out group has 
what I consider to be a very good policy on that.  First of all, NO ONE 
is pressured into pouring money "into the plate".  In fact, it isn't 
even a plate, we have a box sitting very inconspicuously in one part of 
the room for people to put their completely voluntary donations into.  
Seldom is there even a mention made of it.  Those who are members and 
attend regularly know what our expenses are, and help to share them.  
Those who are visitors are NEVER asked to give us money; not a request, 
not a bit of pressure, not even the slightest hint.  We are there as a 
service to our visitors (Luke 22:27), not a product for them to buy.  
That rule was made long before I started going to my church, by the way, 
I didn't make it up.  I do think its a good idea, though.  And speaking 
of rules, I also liked what you said about "man-made rules and 
regulations".  Religions are good at making up their own "man-made rules 
and regulations".  I guess thats why I have such a problem with religion 
of any kind.  Seems like they all want you to dress a certain way, or 
talk a certain way, or wear funny hats, or sheepskin underwear, or 
something weird like that.

57/64 # 99160   More schtuff
From: S'TALON on Fri Mar 17  5:46pm

   First of all, Fe claimed there was no dictatorship in a typical 
Bible-study (as opposed to a church, I presume). This is not true. I 
have gone to a broad spectrum of churches and Bible-study groups, and I 
agree with Chrissy. I have found no powerful churches that are good in 
any sense of the word. There is excessive dicatorship in most 
Bible-study groups as well. If you don't do what they say tï the letter, 
they exile you. If you think and have your own views, they have a 
tendency to kick you out fo their church, as they're afraid that 
open-minded people will steal their slaves away.

   As far as what Prodigal Son said, I have seen fellowships/churches 
that operate with the so-called box in the back. I was told by the 
preacher of that church that I was ungodly if I did not give the tithe 
(a way for clerics to get YOUR hard-earnwd money for their corrupt 
purposes). They had 4 sermons in a row about giving the tithe.

                                          -S'Talon

58/64 # 99165   sigh
From: YAMABUSHI on Fri Mar 17  6:49pm

good stuff tal, Chrissy

A page essay on WHY I dislike Christianity...looë for it in your local 
BBS soon® Oh yeah I'd post but I'm timeless - yama

59/64 # 99185   MURDER!!!!
From: WARRIOR OF THE SON on Fri Mar 17  9:18pm

     That person that shot his girlfireind who was pregnent and killed 
her baby should definately be charged with murder.  Born unborn it is 
still a baby!!!   But knowing our liberal goverment nothing will happen 
to him accept for maybe getting attempted murder  put on him then he 
will be out in about 2 years free as a dog.  Doesn't that stink!!!

              ***************  WARRIOR OF THE SON  ****************

60/64 # 99214   not necessarily.
From: THE GREEK SYNDICATE on Fri Mar 17 11:58pm

Homicide is always an option.  If you want the person to be penalized 
more heavily, go penalize him with a rifle.  that's what *I* always do...

      the friendly neighborhood master of life,
                               ---the Greek Syndicate

61/64 # 99233   AN INTERESTING
From: CAVE MAN on Sat Mar 18  5:12am

Side there, chirp.  Of course this guy would have no chance of getting 
off light from a jury.

   I think the coloring here gets kinda blured at times.  There are 
those who choose to be a slave, but they are not Christians, Buddist, or 
Jews, they are just slaves.  By thier choice, using what modicom of 
enlightenment that is available to them.  That is to say, some are "holy 
innocents" in that they just dont know any better. Are we ahead of them? 
Or are they ahead of us?  Strange as it may seem there is no way to 
tell.  For such is the veil that clouds our eyes.

  Please speak calmly, and remember that stereo typing only casts an 
illusion, which is another veil to cloud the view of the truth.

62/64 # 99299   Just like to also add that,
From: IRONMAN on Sun Mar 19  9:14am

once again, a lot of differing and opposing viewpoints have been 
expressed without any personal attacks or slams .Nice.

63/64 # 99360   just a note
From: CHRISSY on Sun Mar 19  7:00pm

I know this isnt the board for this but after I saw the murder post it 
reminded me of something I wanted to post...did anyone hear about that 
case I am not sure if it was in mo or not where the guy was put away for 
beating his girlfriend...when she testified in court she pleaded that 
they not let him out since she knew he would kill her if they had... 
after 2 years in prision they let him out on a weekend pass, noone 
notified her of this fact since she lived like 200 miles away and they 
figured that he wouldn't go after her...they found her body in her home, 
she had been beaten to death with a handgun.  I think it is sad when a 
woman tries to do something about abuse and then our justice system 
doesn't even bother to let her know so she could have had a chance to 
leave and hide...Chrissy

64/64 # 99410   That is really sad...
From: FIRE ESCAPE on Mon Mar 20  3:09pm

  Chrissy. You hear of these types of injustices every day. The lowering 
value of human life is largely responsible for the apathetic and 
flippant way is it treated in court and in the cases of murder, abortion 
and euthanasia in our society. Ever since we erased the image of God 
from humanity and replaced it with the image of a monkey, we have lost a 
lot of value in ourselves and in others. This is why our current laws 
refuse to properly repay human injustices, they don't realize how 
terrible it is because as a race we have slowly lost our value as 
special creations of God worthy or life and liberty.

  Tal if you have a problem with Prodigal's fellowship or church I 
suggest you take it to E-Mail with him, it doesn't belong on a board, 
personal quibbles or questions are best delat with one on one, don't you 
agree?

   Ironman: It is great that we can have an intelligent conversation 
without quarreling. That's a nice change of pace.

   Prodigal: Ditto! Amen..Down with charlatans and Moneychangers, they 
give everyone a bad name. And good point on the Great commission. Paul 
also said that we should be all things to all be people so thaô by any 
means some might be saved. He certaily didn't advocate isolationism.

                 Fire Escape

63/72 # 99414   FE,
From: S'TALON on Mon Mar 20  4:01pm

  It is not that we replaced God with a monkey. Injustices happenned 
long before the idea of evolution was ever thought up. Just watchsome 
old  movies about the KKK after te Civil War or how te Assyrians (600 BC 
treated all Non-Assyrians), or how preachers in the SOuth would ride 
with the KKK.
  Injustices happen, becuase we have replaced 7''honour' and 'service to 
to others' with 'self' and 'me'. Any society will fall that neglects 
its sacred honour and when the people forget about honour.
   As far as criticizing churches, I was relating my personal experience 
with them, and what I have seen or heard with my own two eyes and ears.

64/72 # 99437   Yep
From: OCTOPUSSY PEELS on Mon Mar 20  6:51pm

Evolution aint a religion® What youre saying is that since we learned more 
about how the wordl is the violence rate went up® We have distanced 
ourselves from our origin, that is about it® Christ would keep a lid on 
violence tho, religions do that - Yama bushi

65/72 # 99454   Thats sad
From: WARRIOR OF THE SON on Mon Mar 20 11:30pm

     That story that Chrissy said is very disturbing.  I hate this 
weekend pass deal.  We should do away with it totally.  We should put 
these criminals away and keep them there not let them out.
     Did anybody here that we spend more money on prisons then we do on 
education that HORRIBLE!  I mean we are more worried about making life 
better for prisoners then to educate people thats pretty bad.
     Personally about evolution that is a totaly unproven theory they 
have a lot of gaps that that theory doesn't fill. -  WARRIOR OF THE SON

66/72 # 99549   S'Talon
From: TRITON on Tue Mar 21  7:42pm

I just thought I would point out that others besides clerics can 'take 
your hard earned money for their corrupt purposes'.  What about certain 
rock stars?  Or certain science fiction writers?  Think about it.

67/72 # 99607   That could be
From: S'TALON on Wed Mar 22 11:46am

  but if I buy a album by a band XXX, and it is a general known fact 
that band xxx is into drugs or something, I know that beforehand. 
Besides, one gets entertainment from te album or concert. Something 
tangeble. The cleric is professing to be good, and in reality is really 
very greedy and very evil® With the SF novel, again, you are getting 
something tangeible in retrun (the book) which is great reading, and if 
onedoesn't like that author, no one is forcing to buy his/her book.

68/72 # 99660   Triton
From: CHRISSY on Wed Mar 22 10:09pm

Yes, others take our money for corrupt purposes but they don't preach 
salvation of your soul for it... Chrissy

69/72 # 99681   I still remember
From: S'TALON on Thu Mar 23  1:40am

how the thumpers were trying to sell the people indulgences, just like the
Romans did 500 years ago (at least they stopped the practice- The Romans 
that is).

70/72 # 99692   Now, S'Talon, I'm sure
From: IRONMAN on Thu Mar 23  8:21am

you've heard of Martin Luther, the Diet of Worms, and the Protestant 
Reformation® The selling of indulgences is so un-Biblical, anyone who 
supported the practice was definitely not working by God's word.

71/72 # 99700   AH!
From: OCTOPUSSY PEELS on Thu Mar 23 11:46am

I AGREE! But some faithful of the time No doubt BELIEVED that is was 
God's Way. Imagine the problems and falsehood such things cause! Better 
to use our brains¡ Which brings me to why I post today. What is the purpose 
of the Book of Job? Seems rather mis-informed.  - Yama bushi

72/72 # 99714   Indulgences and Job..
From: FIRE ESCAPE on Thu Mar 23  1:20pm

  Indulgences were a "good works buy yourself forgivness" plan made up 
completely by corrupt money hungry men masquerading as believers, for if 
they had known the true Jesus and experienced his remdemptive work in 
their own personal lives they would have known that the total debt of 
sin had already been paid and they would have realized the utter 
worthless of money and wealth in the eternal scheme of things. So yes, 
these things were despicable and even today corrupt people still sell 
modern forms of the same thing to profit themselves as they lose their 
very souls, and we all know what Jesus said about that, "What does it 
gain a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?" It was a 
rhetorical question, the obvious answer was, NOT a whole lot. What good 
is wealth and money in Hell? They won't buy your way out of there!
     As for Job, the whole purpose of Job's experience was to teach us 
that obediance and love for God are not CONDITIONAL upon blessings and 
having an "easy" life. It teaches us that trials and tribulations follow 
love and obediance to the Truth and that the truely sincere believer 
perseveres in his faith NO MATTER WHAT. That was the whole point of Job. 
And in the end (the final moral if you would) is that God rewards faith 
in the end, and Job had a wonderful reward, everything was restored to 
him and twice over. This doesn't necessarily mean that we will recoup 
our physical losses in this life but it is symbolic of the abundant life 
we can have in spite of the losses in Jesus Christ® ­ Fire Escape