60/62 # 111418 Jimi, From: TRITON on Mon Aug 7 9:25pm By the concepts of the 'man of thought' and the 'man of action', I was trying to tell S'Talon that I thought he was being too theoretical in all his pursuits, from gaming to theology. Of course all of us show some of each quality from time to time, but the point of what I was trying to say is that I really don't care what a person thinks, ACTIONS are more important. 61/62 # 111429 Pagan and Proud. From: BUCKAROO BANZAI on Mon Aug 7 10:36pm I don't HATE Christians. I sort of feel sorry for them because of the way some parts of the "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH" take advantage of them. If you want to read a good book about theology/philosophy, read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert A. Hienlen. It asks questions about Everything that you take for granted. It does not make you look for answers, but it shows you that there are other posibilities. 62/62 # 111445 "Pagan" and Proud From: YAMABUSHI on Tue Aug 8 12:26am Why is it (a la cave man's post) that nobody noticed that Tal's quote mentioned Myth? Myth, folks is embelished fantasy based REAAALL loosely on fact when put thru the grinder of time. Tell me how does one get around this? IT sis widely accepted by authorities on Religion that this is so. Are we afraid to see something we dont want to? Why not? 54/66 # 111464 Pagan and Proud Part II From: S'TALON on Tue Aug 8 11:15am Welcome aboard, Buck, nice to have some company on here. Me and Jimi was thinking we were the only ones. Blessed Be, -S'Talon 55/66 # 111487 BB From: HAWK on Tue Aug 8 9:22pm Why do you feel sorry for christians? Just becouse of the roman catholic church? I don't unstand what you mean by them taking advange of christians. 56/66 # 111488 hmm.. From: JIMI on Tue Aug 8 9:38pm Could it be that BB and S'Talon ae tying to say, "Think and question!" Did man invent God or did God invent Man?".. "Did God invent Dogma or did man invent the Dogma to keep the classes seperate?".. The Roman Catholic as well as Chistianity as it is pacticed now-adays is 90% Dogma and 10% facts and Science. The Talmudd doesn't even produce the record of Christ's Birth. What about the 10 "Thou Shall Not's!" Why? have said, "I will tell you not to do this and this is why?". In there he states "Do not take any other God(s) before me!" I'am a jealous God!".. Sounds illogical than if there weren't anyother Gods or God equal to him. Secondly, if he is perfect than why should he feel a human emotion as jealousy??? Sounds REALLY screwed to me.. I will put comment on Spike's questions later on in the night when I have more time. 57/66 # 111505 Maybe... From: BLIND PEW on Wed Aug 9 4:19am the jealousy part was added in to make God more accessible to humans, so that they/we could relate to Him better...although I see your point where a perfect person should not be jealous...maybe he's not really jealous though, maybe that's just what Moses suggested he add or something, I dunno... 58/66 # 111508 Sad. From: THE KID on Wed Aug 9 5:17am Triton, I dunno what your problem was with that post or with the ones I posted elsewhere. And, frankly, I know what you said before, I don't need to read them. I know them. And, by the way, if I may, you are I see energetic in "letting off" those who are too busy to bother with this perpetual ignorancy UNLESS IT IS ME! Only it so happens that until last week I was quite effectively busied with the Missouri Bar examination. Nonetheless, I know what you posted then and lately. It is not hard to predict. What I posted, quotations taken from Parke Godwin's WAITING FOR THE GALACTIC BUS are observations. They are not necessarily attacks. On the other hand, if you wish them to be attacks, they are. It depends on your psychology. I have noted that our Christians prefer to be treated as the Abused on Earth. They like the Martyr Sydrome. And Triton rather likes being their protector (its a quick way of making friends, I suppose). But Triton, it was hardly an attack. And I hardly expect to convert anyone (and, no, I don't read Godwin while cleaning the AK, actually I read him in between reading Corporate/Agency/Partnership Law...sorry). I don't say things here or in response to ANYTHING religious in an attempt to convert. It is the sad fate of our Christian "Bible thumpers" to believe in conversion. It is only those prone to being followers and joiners like (Forgive me, Tal) S'Talon in his earlier days who will jump. If a good sect of Buddhists showed up the effect might have been the same. And I do not "hate" our Christian horde so much as find them an incredible boor. The monotone in which they preach, the black-n-white nature of their world, the preordained mentality, the insufferably subtle "we are chosen" undertone, and the inevitable chorus-like nature of their collective conduct run afoul of much of the basic, instinctual understanding of reality I have. I have never and will never posit my own religious viewpoint. (This is in large part because I consider religion more basic than even sex and find it ENORMOUSLY OBSCENE and PROFANE to discuss it as if it were some product essentially sold like P&G's dish soaps...) So you can hardly accuse me of being a heretic. You don't KNOW. But I am one of "them" because I oppose the incessant recruitment programs of modern fundamentalist "Christians". After all, I've always thought truth was sulf-fulfilling and self-sustaining, why the hell do you have to recruit? And, by the way, Triton, I REMEMBER your study of "German" history and I seem to remember how INCREDIBLY limited it was. Unless you happen to have spent the last couple years enrolled in a professional program, don't claim to have "studied history" because you have read a few books. I've read a few books on quantum mechanics. I never said I've studied higher physics. And don't WHINE that there is no analogy, there IS. Indeed, it is infinitely more simple to mislead and lie when writing history and for the layman to BUY it. I know, I've written history... It is pathetically easy to mislead. (Another reason I have a lot of trouble with our literalist religiod friends.) "Hours with the Devil to understand just what you need" Kid 59/66 # 111518 Ok, ok, From: TRITON on Wed Aug 9 9:41am Well put, Kid. I guess you're right, I'm no expert on history. But please give me credit for trying to be more intellectually well-rounded than many others that graduated from Rolla. Where do we go from here? If even the self-educated layman has no right deciding questions of historical and political signifigance, how is democracy supposed to function? The vast majority of citizens have a limited amount of time to become even aware of many political events that take place, much less develop a sophisticated enough opinion to vote for the right reasons. What should I do, if I can't spare enough time away from my specialty to become an expert in all aspects of our democracy? Does that mean I should abstain from voting or expressing my opinion? If my knowledge to make good decisions is inevitably limited, does that mean that I should trust 'experts' and allow them to make decisions for me? That is a very important question. I believe that 'experts' DO have a role in influencing the course of democracy. This issue was an important part in shaping the establishment of the electoral college, where designates of the state could override the popular vote should the popular vote be 'unreasonable'. I don't want to criticize the many hours you have spent developing your expertise on a lot of issues that face our country today. When you said that reading a few books on quantum physics didn't make you an expert, I don't hold that against you. However, even two semesters of physics should be enough to teach the interested layman such things as why the moon doesn't fall down and why it is safe to be in a car during a lightning storm (it's not because the tires act as insulation, by the way). Correspondingly, when I took several semesters of economics and political science, I learned several things about these subjects that allowed me to make better decisions. Physicists have something called the 'correspondence principle', in which a new theory must agree with old theories in the areas those old theories were correct. I hope that even if I understand only the most basic principles of economics and political science, they will still be true despite the more advanced knowledge that I lack. Kid, I hope you did well in your bar exams. I realize that those of us with busy schedules can't log on frequently. In your case, by taking the bar exams, you were making a continued honest effort to be expert. Sometimes, those of us who have the most opportunities to log on have the least to contribute. 60/66 # 111545 Truth From: S'TALON on Wed Aug 9 4:54pm is not found by following someone else's ideas. That route ultimatly leads to slavery. I found that out. Truth is found out on your own, by your own experiences. And there are many truths in the metaphysical realm. Just as there is more than one way to solve a calculus problem, there is more than one Truth, and more than one Path when dealing with God(s). -S'Talon 61/66 # 111556 Jimi and Tal From: FIRE ESCAPE on Wed Aug 9 10:21pm 1> Jimi: Why does it say "you shall have no gods before me"? Because God did not want men to believe in any other gods. He desired them to worship the only true God, not a god of their imaginations. Deuteronomy 4:35 plainly supports this when moses said, "You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is NO other." As for God being "jealous", the other places where this Hebrew word is used (see: Exodus 34:14, Deuteronomy 4:24, Psalm 78:58, Isaiah 42:13, Ezekiel 5:13 etc..) it is more appropriately translated, "Zealous". God always viewed Israel as a bride, a chosen people. He is possessive of them like a husband would zealously long after his wife. It is an expression of God's love. What is so wrong with this? 2> Tal: You said that there is more then one way to God and that one can only find it by his own investigation. Well, it is true that no one else can find God for you, it is a personal discovery, that is true. But I must differ that God is relative or sujective. Enough evidence points to God being an absolute. And I really can't agree that if there is an "absolute God" that there would be more than one "absolute way" to get to Him. It only makes sence that an "absolute deity" would require and "absolute way" to reach Him. 62/66 # 111563 Hmmm... From: SPIKE on Wed Aug 9 11:51pm Fire Escape, You really shouldn't have referred me to the existentialist writers . I compare God and His Light to this: each individual has been given a certain measure of Light, of the revelation of God. I, as a Christian, believe Jesus Christ and His Word to have been the fully manifest revelation of the Light. Look at Abraham and the OT saints, were THEY NOT justified by faith? Indeed, they were, because they saw "Jesus day and rejoiced in it." Like Moses, who it is said, saw the Light through a veil, those without the full measure are missing the blessings and possibilities. Each is judged according to his acceptance of the measure of Light and the Word gifted unto him, with Jesus Christ being the full measure. It is not for those of us who have been given a choice to accept or deny the full measure, it is not for us to judge the fate of one given lesser revelation--but to concentrate on living the life of Truth in Christ in all love and forgiveness. Jimi, Still looking for the Zohar and Kabbalah Unveilied, checking in the Central West End and on Euclid tomorrow. Hope to get them before I leave for college so we can wrap this one up... 63/66 # 111574 hey..jimi and s'talon.... From: TYGER CHAZ on Thu Aug 10 1:07am you're not the only ones...i'm here too.... just wanted to point that out....glad to see you're keeping the thoughts flowing.... Blessed Be and keep it up....see ya soon... 64/66 # 111589 FE From: S'TALON on Thu Aug 10 11:51am Don't you have an answer for my last E-Mail, where there are phenomena that exists that don't hold up to the Christian view of life and death? As for as an absolute deity and one way, where is your proof of that. You have never given proof of the Bible besides circular arguments. Maybe that's becuase there is no proof. I still can't understand how you, FE since you are female, advocates a religon (Christianity/thumping) that basically enslaves females to their fathers then, their husbands. Now, that is inhumane. Freedom for all and Blessed Be, 65/66 # 111600 WAS THAT MY LINE? From: CAVE MAN on Thu Aug 10 3:11pm Or was that yours? There is a problem with your one-way god FE. The problem is... Is your one-god the one-god, or is the Ayatolla's one-god THE one-god? Or perhaps in a christian encloseure what about Jim & Tammy Baker's? Your assurtion of the truth is the proof that folks are asking for, Not the proof of gods exsistence, but the source of your assurance. In brief... what makes your version different that Jim & Tammys? [] 66/66 # 111644 Tal From: FIRE ESCAPE on Thu Aug 10 11:55pm I already answered your misperceptions about the roles of women in christianity, I'll repeat them again for the benefit of those who didn't get to see my response before: Christianity doesnot enslave or oppress women, quite to the contrary - it esteems women highly and has made provisions for their well treatment within a marriage covenant. Where other religions taught and allowed women to be regarded as inferior, Christian teaching esposes the concept that wives and husbands are EQUAL in Christ and that they are CO-HEIRS together. Husbands are commanded to love their wives and to show them the respect due them as co-heirs and sisters in the Lord. For biblical support of this view examine these scriptures: Ephesians 5:25,28-29,33; 1st Peter 3:7, Colossians 3:19; Galatians 3:28 among others. As for the matter of your other letter, I am still researching my reply, I wasn't aware that I had a deadline boss... How do I know my revelation of God is accurate? How does one know how to breathe? It's not something easily explainable. I can testify that I trusted God and took Him at His word and he did not disappoint me. If you have doubts about that, all I can say is examine His claims for yourself and see what He does for you. Is that so much to ask anyone?