76/81 # 110310 Christianity From: BLIND PEW on Tue Jul 25 2:32am I think there are a lot of Christians in the world who take the Bible much too literally, particularly the New Testament, in which Jesus told everybody to be nice to each other. Unfortunately, after he dies he becomes a hero and people kill for him, in the Crusades among other events. Not exactly what he had in mind, eh? 77/81 # 110316 Hmm.. From: JIMI on Tue Jul 25 4:10am Ty eading the "Epic of Gilgamesh". It was a interesting idea far before the biblical version of Noah was thought about. Which would explain were alot of the accounts of "Crreation" came from the Sumerian and Bablonian Eras. If you read the Sumerian Mythology along with the Babalonian then you find the ideas behind "Creation" and the ideas of Light beating Darkness actually came from them. They had the battle between Marduk (which would be like Zues or Jupiter i.e The Christian God) and Tiamat (The ideas of darkness personified) having a majo cosmic battle. In this battle Marduk wins and chains Tiamat (The Chistian Devil) below the earth and bounds it to the pit. This is until some moron comes along and releases the being again out upon the face of the earth. Something along the lines of H.P Lovecrafts "Cthulu Mythos" and many other great books along those lines... 78/81 # 110327 Common Logical Errors From: SWEAT on Tue Jul 25 11:53am Jimi, as I have said before, similarity and pre-existance do not necessitate superiority or ancestory. That is a common misconception of evolutionary thought. Cause and effect is a scientific law accepted purely by faith. I've read the mythology and find the parallels remarkable. But again I must say that if certain Biblical events are actual and historical, wouldn't civilizations attempt to explain these events according to their culture and traditions? The Pentauch (the first five books of the Bible) are the divine revelation of God to Moses from Mount Sinai, where Moses also recieved the Ten Commandments and the Law. Herein, God revealed the light behind the shadows these civilizations had percieved. 79/81 # 110332 thats basakwards From: DEAD POET on Tue Jul 25 1:25pm Jimi is right those writings ARE older. Nothing more needs to be said. One is descended from the other. If you believe otherwise, please prove it without telling "God said so". For if he did, there oughta be another way rgardless to show me thats so. 80/81 # 110334 Please From: SWEAT on Tue Jul 25 4:36pm Let me use an example from anthropology then, Ok. Examine the features of the duck and the platypus, both have bills. Oh heck, let's use another example, one used in a Da tape. There is an earthquake, both man and a gorilla that knows sign language are asked to describe it. The man replies: "Geological disturbance that causes the earth to rumble, move and possibly crack." The gorilla replies, "Darn Floor -- Big Bite." The Sumerian and Babylonian cultures are indeed older than the Judaic, as are their writings. BUT IF THE EVENTS ARE INDEED HISTORICAL, wouldn't the Sumerian and Babylonian cultures explain these events as best they could? The Judaic is not taken from the Sumerian and Babylonian cultures, but they are related because they refer to the same event. Moses had the truth about these events revealed though, wiping away the polytheism and mythology. Polytheistic worship did NOT originate with Moses, as it would have to if your interpretation were correct, it originated with Abraham. For there to have been an Israel, there would have been a reason. Moses and the Israelites were in Egypt under bondage, and they were polytheists. But the objectors seem to imply that polytheism originated with Moses--when it predated him. Ah heck, I can't explain it any better than this. 81/81 # 110337 I've been reading about From: INERTIA on Tue Jul 25 5:35pm the earth and it's cultures. So many people believed so many things that they couldn't comprehend. Every one had their own interpretation and wrote about it if they were smart. Then they became famous for explaining the facts of life. Years (many) later, these peole were proven wrong and life goes on. I can't understand the fact that because one person said so. This blind faith pisses me off. All of these years of uncovering so called facts about god and why things fall to the earth and there's some people that refuse any new beliefs. I'm not a non-believer. I'm not a believer. I'm open minded but I refuse to believe that anyone can follow blindly. I hear many times in church that people are referred to as sheep. The same sheep that follow one another off a cliff without thinking. Since I'm on a roll, Some of the shepards, I'd like to congratulate. The languge and double meanings are incredible. I was even impressed because everything that was said made sense even though it had nothing to do with what the original question was. It was because "God" said so. 77/87 # 110352 I never mean to imply From: DEAD POET on Tue Jul 25 8:31pm polytheism originated with Moses® I dont think it originated with Abraham. Course my learning gets silly sometimes. I DID MEAN to imply that because of such age and cultural diversity, embellishment and TIME that such writings were mostly myth, where myth is most likely® Sigh if you lived like me, uoud believe like me too. 78/87 # 110395 I DO FIND IT CURIOUS From: CAVE MAN on Wed Jul 26 3:51am That isolated communities would "invent" god with such similar atributes. Now of course thier are cultural differences, but i find the underlying "truths" to be surprizingly similar. This is the only influence of external inteligence that i can see in the entire process of religion. (This of course assumes that effects from "the force" are natural phnonmenom) 79/87 # 110397 Polytheism From: SPIKE on Wed Jul 26 6:14am certainly didn't originate with Moses OR Abraham, it originated with God--and that should be MONOtheism (One God). It was revealed to Abraham and elaborated to Moses. I understand what most of you are saying, but I don't agree. I've gone through the "higher criticism" and "thought-critic" routines, where I thought the Scriptures were altered with time to become more fantastic and supernatural. Only thing is that this is NOT historically accurate. I do believe that the Bible is literature, which makes it so beautiful and helps me to understand it sometimes. But I believe that it is etched with the influence and Truth of God. I could get into the "doctrine of Biblical innerancy" but I'm sure I'D fall asleep. 80/87 # 110404 Polytheism From: S'TALON on Wed Jul 26 12:19pm is older. If it wasn't why do historians refer to it as "The Elder Gods", or the "The Elder religon". Blessed Be, -S'Talon 81/87 # 110426 Huh? From: SPIKE on Wed Jul 26 4:11pm Didn't I just say that the existance of polytheistic religions pre-dates Judaism? Monotheistic religion originated with Abraham, and was revealed in Moses. But the existance of the monotheistic God, YHWH, pre-dates the psuedo-existance of man's shadowed perceptions of the Divine. For man began to worship the work of his own hands, the angelic majesties, and the fallen beings (fallen angels and demons). 82/87 # 110468 I have a question... From: OFF THE WALL on Thu Jul 27 1:15am In the past I have seen ppl blast thumpers for their beliefs and I'm curious....What is WRONG with being a Christian? I mean all the things that God ask of christians isn't too much to ask for life in heaven. And what harm is it to be a Christian? I'm really confused. 83/87 # 110480 hmm.. From: JIMI on Thu Jul 27 4:18am I hate to break your heart but, the Judiastic People were not always Monotheistic.. They were Ploytheistic and were for a good deal of time along with Abraham The Jew which was Mohabite (meaning his God was Mohab). If you look any farther into Judiaism which you would need the "Kabbala" for you would find this out. You will find that "Yod, He, Vau, He, or Jehova as the Christians call him is amagilmation (sp?) of Polytheistic Principles into Monothiesm.. They weren't Monotheistic until about 200 years before Christ and then the Rabbi's being mostly Hasidiac would have tought the "Older or Elder" ways (I.e Polythiesm) to the poeple. Now if you have realised that most of the sumerians and Bablonians were mixed with all the other races in the area around the Dead Sea and such. The introgration of the legends could have VERY easily taken place. Onemore point, would be that the correct refernce to Moses would be Mosheh, which is the title given to "The High Priest" of the temple.. Which in itself predates the theory of Moses. Which they are finding no historical evidence to sustian his birth or anything.. Jimi 84/87 # 110503 re: "wrong w/being xtian?" From: THE GREEK SYNDICATE on Thu Jul 27 5:13pm nothing is wrong with being a christian. The only objection I have is when a christian continues to try to convince me that I should be a christian after I explain my personal beliefs and say that I'd rather not be preached at or to. ---the Greek Syndicate 85/87 # 110512 yep From: DEAD POET on Thu Jul 27 6:03pm futher I see tall the wrongs and limitation christianity offers and creates. me no likum. Cave man: I think thse similar influences are due to the fact that humans brought about the religion and that all humans have similar perceptions about thier environs and what isnt good. Most cultures find mountains and birds, anything that flies, stars, objects in the skies to be wonderous and worthy of worship. Such things (from primitive times to now) can progress from wonder to awe to reverence is the stimui are strong and of enough influence. Therefore, if volcanoes erupt you may be awed, when the destroy your villiage you may respect, fear then revere volcanoes. 86/87 # 110517 Jimi... From: SPIKE on Thu Jul 27 6:45pm Concerning the Kabbalah, I have seen and read excerpts from the Zohar, which is the closest Judaic, pure commentary on Hesiadic Judaism. I also am familiar with the concept of Yahweh being a synthesis of polytheistic principles. Don't make comments unless you are prepared for an answer. The only thing CLOSE to plurality in the Zohar is the comments concerning the Three Lights in One, which is a reference to the Trinity. The Judaics were polytheistic until 200 years before Christ?!?! I suggest you reread the history and theology you have reconstructed. The Tenach (OT) affirms the singular, Almighty God. Abraham WAS a polytheist before God called him to be the father of His People. Then Abraham believed on the Lord God by faith, and it was credited as righteous. Oh well, I'll get back to more of this later. 87/87 # 110547 PREDATES From: CAVE MAN on Fri Jul 28 2:04am I assume my Mono-poly, you folks are reffering to the number of god-head. Almost every religion i have heard of considers the top character to be "everything" and all else it but a mere portion of him. Is Christianity considered non-poly, despite the trinity? I dont want to tread on the topic, it's just that i am not clear on the relevance of the theism in regards to it predating other beliefs. Historically, the orientals predate western religion, but that doesnt effect it's valitity. Now i believe that man started believing any/everything (like Yama said above), and narrowed his perception when he realized " oh thats just atmosphereical condensation"(not a rain god). And this leads one to assume that a one god theme is more evolved, but that is just a perception. While the Hindus(i think it's the Hindu's) are perceived to believe in many gods to the western view, they see those gods as aspects or atributes of Krishna(thier singular god-head). So what i am asking is what are the present effects of these poly vs mono views. 78/79 # 110625 almost exactly right, CM From: THE GREEK SYNDICATE on Sat Jul 29 1:02am The Hindus have something on the order of 30 million "Gods", but these are (according to hindu scholars) sort of signposts, pointers to help you see the REAL god, who is in fact Brahman. Krishna is one of the 30 million, who has incarnated at various points on the Earth...very important to Hinduism, but not *the* God... Brahman manifests in two different ways. Many worship etc. "Saguna Brahman," or "God with Attributes," who is a lot like God the Father -- a god who is personal, has some form of emotion, helps you out, looks basically human. The more *correct* or *exact* vision of God, however, is "Nirguna Brahman" (there will be a quiz on terms later), or "God wihout Attributes," who is sort of a cosmic electricity, everywhere in the universe, which is not really aware in our sense of the word. Sort of a "essence of God-stuff" viewpont® very interesting stuff, Hinduism. 79/79 # 110686 What's wrong with Xians From: S'TALON on Sun Jul 30 12:58am There's absolutely nothing wrong with Christians or the Christ. Christ was a good being. It is his ministers and priests who abuse the teachings of Christ that most people abhor. Also, there is a difference between a Christian (like your standard Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopleans etc.) and your Bible thumpers (also known as Fundamentalists, Biblicans, Fosterites etc.). The thumpers cannot accept another religon, they think their faith is the only right one, and throughout history to the present day, they have tried to stamp out anything that disagrees with them. Also, they have a tendency to be preachy and never getting off your back® Blessed Be, -S'Talon P.S. As far as the Jews are concerned, many people did not agree with the idea of monotheism and many kings of Isreal and Judah repressed people of different faiths. Those who surivived often went to the two Kingdoms' enemies, and it is thought that this help from exiles of Isreal as well as the corruption that often goes with theocracys and religous rulers that led to Isreal's downfall to the Assyrians and Judah's downfall to the Chaldeans. They might have fallen anyway, but those two factors made it a hell of a lot easier for those two nations to fall. 66/71 # 110900 CART BEFORE THE HORSE From: CAVE MAN on Tue Aug 1 4:29am I beg to differ Tal, in that it is not the aformentioned groups that have failed to see the light and follow the Christ they claim. Rather it is the other way around, your personal clan does not make you a true follower or not, it is your personal interpretation. I have an aunt who is a witness, yet she never hustled any of us kids and i didnt know she was a witness untill recently. Why?, she was too busy living the christian life. My point is, i think it is wrong to lump folks into a cast because of the way they were taught when they is the simple method of judging them by thier works. I also have to question the ranking of Krishna, Greek. (as if it mattered(which it dont)). The Braham came from a lotus that grew from Krishna's navel, and at the end of the really big cycle he will return. He is outside of Kali's dance however, which is why he has to return to the lotus, because he is too big for Kali to cut down. [] CAVE MAN []