54/59 # 109629 Cave Man, From: TJ on Mon Jul 17 12:18pm first of all,I think God is everyplace,including at abortion clinics. He doesn't stop things like abortions from happening for the same reason He doesn't stop anything else evil that happens. He gave humans free will,and if they do evil things,He'll have them punished for it as they deserve in the end. He made a promise not to interfere with our decisions on this planet - no matter how much He doesn't like what we do. But that's a religious issue,and of course,anyone can believe what they like on that - so it's not worth arguing about really. What I really wanted to post about was why I believe abortions could be made legal in the situation where a mother's life was in danger,even though I strongly believe abortion is murder. I think there are situations where murder is acceptable,simply because it is the lesser of two evils. I don't agree with murder,but I'm for self-defense,even if it means killing the attacker. It's the same sort of thing. If a person's life is in danger because of another person,maybe murder is necessary. That doesn't make murder any less of a serious thing though. The way I see it,if there's a situation where a mother's life is really in great danger if she has a baby,then it would be a tough decision - but an abortion might be a legal option in my opinion. After all,how can you really say the baby is more important than the mother. (Or for that matter,the other way around.) If one of them is going to die from the situation,I don't think you can legislate which is more important by making abortion illegal in that kind of case. Other than that - I don't think abortion should be legalized. In cases of rape, incest,etc. it's a terrible thing that it happened,but I don't think two wrongs make a right by killing the baby. Also,the statistics show that that's not a very common occurance. Most women who are raped are under too much stress to have a baby after it occurs. 55/59 # 109639 Hmmm... From: SYSOP on Mon Jul 17 3:10pm First, I'd like to address TJ's comments about "life's importance by age" a few messages back there. The way things are now, you gain more and more rights as you get older. Would you propose that we allow 5 yr olds to drive? And, remember you can't drink till 21? Also, you aren't even considered a real, independent person (with a legal signature, voting rights and all) till you are 18. Maybe we should abolish all those laws, eh? And, about FE's "baby who will discover a cure for Aids or Cancer"... That's a bunch of crap. Didn't it ever occur to you that you stand just as much of a chance at preventing that person who will discover Aides or Cancer by using contraception? Or, are you one of these people who is also against the use of contraception? What a mess... And, a little about God. God is forced on everybody. Just look at all your money. It has some graffiti on it saying "IN GOD WE TRUST". I never had any say-so in that. And, our forefathers didn't have anything to do with it either. Ever notice how consumer products (like cars, etc.) don't say "IN GOD WE TRUST" on them? Why? Nobody would buy them! Of course you can optionally put that on your car if you wish (ie. Bumper stickers). But, you can't remove it from your money without violating laws about defacing money. Boy, that's an excellent example of the separation of church and state, isn't it? At least my credit cards don't have that on them. Having "IN GOD WE TRUST" on my money (which I must carry because we are not totally cashless yet) is forcing your ideas on me. How would you like money that said "THERE IS NO GOD" or "IN SATAN WE TRUST"? 56/59 # 109649 wonderful From: YAMABUSHI on Mon Jul 17 7:02pm wonderful 57/59 # 109654 Well, Mike From: BIFF on Mon Jul 17 8:56pm without light there is no darkness, so without God, there is no Satan. Money should be reprinted, In today's society, it often isn't God that most trust, but money and power. In Money We Trust. It is really a sick world. Just as a point has anyone ever read "The Ceremonies by T.E.D. Klein? If so, I can show a perfect example of how decayed our society really is. Morals? What are they? 58/59 # 109657 Morals and ethics... From: TEMPEST on Mon Jul 17 10:11pm Interesting concept in modern society--totally subjective. Makes government and justice obsolete. Stoplights are only for people who don't know how to drive properly. Oh well, what a world we live in. What a world we die in. 59/59 # 109665 Abortion, morals etc.. From: FIRE ESCAPE on Mon Jul 17 11:36pm A final note on Abortion: I believe that it is up to every person, male and female to decide where they stand on the issue. It's the people in this nation that make the laws (or so that's how it is suppose to work) and if you have a problem with the way a law is, it is up to you to get enough people to agree with you in order to make a difference. That's how a democracy works. After all, we have laws in this country against murdering your children, but somehow that doesn't seem to cover them until they stick their head out (and even that is no guarentee these days - ask any nurse who's been at the bedside of defective saline abortions).. I guess my gripe is that when other people strive to solicit people for law changes, no one screams, (That's their constitutional right). SO why complain that millions of american want to change abortion laws? Isn't this a democracy? If the majority thinks it ought to not be legal, then why complain? If you don't like the laws reflecting the ideals of the people, move to RUSSIA! As long as I am an american, I will work to make this country reflect laws I am PROUD of, not ones that I am ashamed of. If you don't like the morals that motivate new laws, then do something about it instead of griping at others for it. 57/65 # 109689 Quote From: BEYOND LOST on Tue Jul 18 2:36am Her lips came forward as if her tongue wer fiddling with something caught between her teeth; a Fifties mannerism that made her look remarkably like her mother. After considering thus, she said, "I have to think about it. I'm not kidding, Nunc, I feel it's a sin to do it." "We all feel it's a sin. But the world is mired in sin. In this mire we try to determine the lesser of available evils. We try to choose, and take the consequences. That's what being a grown-up is." "Come on - you believe even little babies are bad?" "Augustine did. John Calvin did. All the best Christian thinkers did. You have to; otherwise the world isn't truly fallen, and there's no need for Redemption, there's no Christian story. Anyway, Verna, it's your life, as you said. Your sweet body." -From "Roger's Version", by John Updike 58/65 # 109711 . From: S'TALON on Tue Jul 18 1:10pm FE- In theory this country is a Republic, and in fact its really an oligarchy, with PACs and lobbyists etc. 59/65 # 109733 Gosh... From: TIGRIS LENIS on Tue Jul 18 5:38pm ...even though we've got a 'Politics and all that Jazz' board AND 'The Pulpit', even we can't separate church and state. 60/65 # 109749 As for Russia From: TRITON on Tue Jul 18 11:26pm I heard somewhere that on average, the typical Russian woman has six abourtions during her lifetime. Kind of makes one wonder. 61/65 # 109770 Not at all... From: BEYOND LOST on Wed Jul 19 12:27am I don't wonder a bit... the Russians are often forced to have an abortion by the gov't... their only allowed to have so many children... that is no different than legislating AGAINST abortion... still forcing a view... and that's all their is to it... 62/65 # 109813 Why don't they... From: TIGRIS LENIS on Wed Jul 19 1:34pm just let the 'abortion pill' be imported from France? 63/65 # 109817 The average From: S'TALON on Wed Jul 19 1:44pm Soviet probably can't afford more than 1 or 2 children at the most, the way their economy is wrecked. 64/65 # 109833 Abortion Pill From: TEMPEST on Wed Jul 19 4:26pm Take a pill for this, take a pill for that. Makes you happy, makes you sad. Makes you high, helps your dad. Take a pill and save your dog, take a pill and kill a baby. When man gets to judge the quality of life and eliminate all life that is inconvienient, we all suffer the spectre of extinction. Whee, kill a baby then save a dog. Anti-abortion statutes are not to punish those who have sex, it is to bestow the right of life upon those who are alive. I may not condone pre-marital sex or promiscuity, but I would rather someone use birth control than risk getting pregnant and slaying life by some absurd and contradictory legal method. 65/65 # 109846 "take a pill for this" From: THE GREEK SYNDICATE on Wed Jul 19 9:17pm one pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small, and the ones that mother gives you don't do anything a'tall... Hurm...hold on, I'll ask Alice about it. 66/81 # 109997 here is a quote, From: GRIMLOCK on Fri Jul 21 6:40am and I thinks that it belongs here rather than on the ol quote board.... 'If a man cannot trust himself, then trusting God is a small consolation§ - John M. Ford--Preflash 67/81 # 110015 Another Religious quote.. From: FIRE ESCAPE on Fri Jul 21 3:19pm "A man persuaded against his will, is of the same opinion still." - Don't know who said it though... "Is it faith to understand nothing and merely submit your convictions implicitly to the Church? Faith consists not in ignorance but in knowledge." - John Calvin. Far too many church goers imagine they can escape moral responsibility by letting the clergy do their thinking for them, and that attending church and going along with it's rules puts them "in the faith". Calvin denounced this very churchianity when he stated "Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ Jesus, not in reverence for the Church." There are probably far more persons than one imagines within most large churches who have been talked into assenting to something which they have never really believed and who scarcely know how to rid themselves of the sham that makes their lives so miserable! We as Christians must be very careful not to force false decisions upon those who do not fully understand the issues or are not ready to make a genuine commitment. Jesus himself set this example by discouraging mere enthusiasm or lip service by the way he responded to some who seemed so eager to follow him (See Luke 18:18-25; Luke 9:57-62). 68/81 # 110118 Actually, the Soviet From: IRONMAN on Sat Jul 22 9:02pm government is, through a series of financial incentives, attempting to reduce the number of abortions in order to increase the birth rate. 69/81 # 110160 hey.. From: CRONUS on Sun Jul 23 4:54am lets send them our overpopulants.. wait.. that would go against the bill of rights.. 70/81 # 110192 Then, From: S'TALON on Sun Jul 23 11:23pm Fe, I would think you should follow your own advice about not listening to clergy's interpertation of the Bible. Clergy preaches sin and repentance and slavery. FE, you seem to preach the very same thing. "Christians rape the Earth, and call it godly. They need to listen to their own Christ" -Archon quote during on what's wrong with the world- 71/81 # 110223 Rape From: SWEAT on Mon Jul 24 6:37am Interesting choice of words which I don't have TOO much time to get into. It is not the clergy that preaches sound doctrine, anything but actually, it is the Bible that outlines God's revelation to man in Jesus. The knowledge that we are with sin, and that we should repent of that sin, is part of the Bible. Slavery, no--freedom can only come through the release of one's slavery in sin. I shall continue... 72/81 # 110234 I have a question... From: INERTIA on Mon Jul 24 11:33am I was just sitting here wondering when exactly that the Bible was first written. Does anyone know? 73/81 # 110240 Well, From: S'TALON on Mon Jul 24 12:45pm they claim the first five books was written by Moses. How would Moses know anything of what happenned about creation (as Biblicans claim that the Bible is literal and not symbolic/contextual as most modern theologians have found out). So, that would make it about 1,400 BC. I have also heard that the creation stories were ripoffs of the Babylonian creation stories written about 1,000 years earlier. Anyone know much about this? I'm not an expert on Sumerian/Babylonian mythos. 74/81 # 110250 The Canon (Bible) From: SWEAT on Mon Jul 24 3:54pm In Dueteronomoy, Moses says that the Creation account was told to him throught the revelation of God at Mount Sinai (when the Ten Commandments were recieved). (whoops, delete the last "o" in Duet.) The Book of Romans explains that shadows (partial revelations) of God existed before His revelation in the Bible, but were darkened by mans sin and wild fancies. There are similarities in the accounts: the Flood, man as a 'special' creation, the active role of God, the Tower of Babel. But if the Biblical accounts are factual, wouldn't it follow that earlier accounts would try to explain the historical events in terms they best knew, within their traditions (polytheism)? On Freedom: I find freedom in Christianity because I have the power to do what is right of my own free accord. Not because of guilt or sorrow, but out of a mutual love for God. I am freed from many of the aspects of sin, which controls and masters many, in thought and action. I'll use Romans and Galatians later and give a commentary on what they say about freedom. 75/81 # 110256 MOSES From: DEAD POET on Mon Jul 24 5:05pm with more time...® dont we all want it? Moses grew up as an egyptian as I recall. He didnt write what we think he did. Inf fact he probably dictated most if not all. Therefore, methinx there could be errors very easily. What Tal has said is close to the truth. Such creation stories were FIRST babylonian and sonme say indian (serious doubt abou that one) Such stories have been around for SOME time and because of such fact generally kills the idea that they came from god. Keep in mind these stories were vocally tranmitted for years. they arent what they once were. Therefore they cant be all that godly. Yama"nobody belives me when I say this, ever. Jeez, im a nice guy, I dont see why" bushi