21/25 # 106459 Ah, but you can't PROVE it From: IRONMAN on Thu Jun 15 7:20pm therefore it is without merit and not worthy of discussion. ( Let's see, I think I'm following the rules of this subbie.... isn't that how it works ? ). And as to the "devil with horns", etc........ Please show me in the Bible where it says that® Thank you. 22/25 # 106472 Devil has horns and From: THE PRODIGAL SON on Thu Jun 15 9:42pm bat wings? Sorry, you'll have to excuse me while I stifle a guffaw... there, finished. Now, seriously, I, like Ironman would also like to see that in the Bible. Satan, previously known as Lucifer, was described as an angel of incredible beauty, not horns or bat wings or goats hooves or anything stupid like that. Jimi, you accuse us thumpers of jumping to wrong conclusions about the religions, but then you do the same thing you bitch at us about. Doesn't your neck ever get sore? 23/25 # 106511 Okay.. From: JIMI on Fri Jun 16 2:26am Ironman.. Prove that what is true?? You didn't tell me what. Do I have to prove that what I wrote is "The Quaballa? If that is true than read "Quaballa Denudata by Von Rosencruz.. About the Bat Wings and Horns, I will have to look it up. 24/25 # 106546 The bible never From: TJ on Fri Jun 16 12:45pm really comes out and describes how any of the creatures such as angels,etc. look as far as I know. People still can't really agree on what Jesus was supposed to look like. What's the difference though if the devil had horns,wings,or whatever? Actually,if I had to guess,I'd say the devil looks just like any of the other angels looked - but that isn't really saying much either. People can depict those creatures however they wish,and at least if you draw a devil with horns and all,people can identify it readily. It doesn't really make a difference if it's correct or not. 25/25 # 106552 Satan.. From: FIRE ESCAPE on Fri Jun 16 1:40pm Let's put it in terms most SF people would understand. Satan is kinda like "the Master" (not the user). He is a genuis of disguise. A masquerader at heart. He always comes in the least expected form. Second Corinthians 11:14 plainly says that Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. F.C. Jennings did an outstanding study on Satan. He haä this to say about the misconceptions uneducated Christians have held concerning our enemy. "Let me ask; are all these foolish and repulsive pictures; all the unworthy or slurring thoughts that we have received and harboured as to the Devil, are they consistent with truth? Do they come from God or are they pleasing to Him? Surely not. Nor is it perhaps the least clear evidence of the exceeding "subtlety" of our enemy that he himself has been the author of these very falsehoods as of all others; for if he can thus bring men, and especially the Lord's people to despise him, they will be all the less watchful, the less prayerful, feel less the need of being on their guard against him; of depending on the one single Arm that is greater then his; and his control of them, quite unexpected, will be all the easier and more complete.." (1890) Fire Escape 26/31 # 106598 or put in a more historical From: CHILDHOOD TRAUMA on Sat Jun 17 12:35am light. using the oldest availible model for satan derived from the oldest scholars of the old testiment... satan does not exist! But then again, what do they know? one interpretation is as good as the next, I suppose, as long as they are logical... 27/31 # 106633 yeah From: YAMABUSHI on Sat Jun 17 8:35am thats so CT, IT appears to me that Sataî (if it must be named) is a little ethereal. more that which isnt according to biblical dictates (Sin=that which is against god, thursday night) so I ask, if satan is action doesnt that negate the need for a persona? 28/31 # 106661 I still ask From: S'TALON on Sat Jun 17 5:33pm the question prove the Bible. I don't care what it says in the Bible. It's unprovable. And even if it was provable, who would want to follow a God that has the reputation of killing entire nations and killing innocents. I like what Gene Rodenberry thought of God in Star Trek V. 29/31 # 106746 Yeah, From: NIKADEMUS on Sun Jun 18 9:54pm "What does God want with a Star Ship?" Satan is a 'master' of disguise, but then so is God. After all, God took the form of a buring bush and a rainbow, and (so some belive) Jesus Christ, as Jesus is the son of God and father, son and holy spirit are all one. Some people believe that God also takes on the form of the devil. Sort of like a dark side to his personality I guess... 30/31 # 106763 Oh, and.. From: GRYPHON on Mon Jun 19 12:42am since God created Satan (he DID create everything, after all), he must have had a helluva (pardon the pun..I couldn't resist) reason for doing so.... 31/31 # 106811 Satan From: FIRE ESCAPE on Mon Jun 19 1:48pm Yama: Yes. Sin = That which is in opposition to God's will. But Sin does not = Satan. Satan is an entity with a personality according to Christian teaching. He is not an action or a philosophy. Actions don't roam about like lions looking for whom they can devour. Gryphon: Yes, God created Satan, but not as the Accuser (What Satan means) but as Lucifer (Light bearer). He was as all things, created Good, without pre-existent sin. He chose to sin (like humans do) and thus became evil. God allows evil to form as a result of the free will of his creations. This permissiveness does not mean God wants it to exist, only that it is a necessary manifestation of free will abused. Evil is the result of excercising one's will in opposition to God's perfect will. Tal: As I said before, if you don't want to believe the Bible, fine. Don't believe it. The responsibility for the descion is yours. God doesn't need anyone to "prove" Him. He proves himself. You KNOW that. 32/34 # 106828 LIke, promethean, FE From: YAMABUSHI on Mon Jun 19 5:19pm lucifer..... I still think perhaps satan's interpetation is a little too literal. We should get together and speak of it. yamabushi 33/34 # 106997 Hmm.. From: JIMI on Wed Jun 21 8:16am I have looked but, will keep looking for it. Wish I would have saved the verses on this stuff (if it is there).. If you go by "Satan-called Lucifer" than you can bring in the "Lux=Light Fero=Bringer of" Texts. You could always go as far as looking up the stuff on "Lucifuge" which, would roughly translate "The BEast in the Pit".. You could also go into the "Legends of Lucifer and Diana" for info but, that is a different Lucifer. To the Greeks it was Polytheism and Monotheism for some took either or.. Tal, I would say that if you are looking for that go back to the "Torah or the "Zohar" for your looking at validity and truth... FE, How does your "God" keep proving himself. I'am just wondering. Am I missing the evidence.. 34/34 # 107011 Proof From: FIRE ESCAPE on Wed Jun 21 12:12pm AS I have said before on numerous occasions. When you step out in faith to meet God, He will not dissappoint you. The proof is an internal assurance and a transformation of heart and life that goes beyond understanding. God draws us to Himself so that we will reach out for Him and when we do, He responds. It is not the same with each person for God knows our hearts and what we need to trust. He supplies these things to each person as they seek Him. Jesus is the door. Once you enter - God is forever proving Himself to you. Try it. The door is never locked. 35/39 # 107030 As From: S'TALON on Wed Jun 21 5:33pm That internal assurance that you speak of FE comes from any religon. And as for me, I would rather follow such Gods as prefer life over death. Accomplishment over the sterility of the Biblicans. Mankind was meant to accomplish and strive forward, not to think of sin and do penance. 36/39 # 107083 FE... From: DR. APOLOGETIC on Thu Jun 22 1:46am So, God's proof to his faithful amount to self-assurance and high self-esteem? I know non-Christian's with both and Christian's with neither... I think that's more a personal thing than a thing God brings... and whatever happened to the argument that 'God needs no proof, and hence gives none'? 37/39 # 107108 Note: From: TRITON on Thu Jun 22 4:49am God is not elected. His attributes may or may not agree with our wishes, but IF he exists, he is STILL God. 38/39 # 107130 therefore From: YAMABUSHI on Thu Jun 22 12:58pm he should pay taxes® Im tired of this. Last night at FE's I endured mental anguish over this situation, among other things. I talked to Biff and realized that I should SAY what I have on my mind regardless of how it might affect relations. Each faith, when analyzed, SHOULD bring forth the confidence and coping ability we're speaking of. For, each is only a means to living life (which, I might add, is lifes purpose-living) Christianity provides a great, Fatherly, strong mechanism for getting thru life, yet i can be exceptionally destructive. Therefore, I ask us to look at our faith and see whether it infringes on our freedoms and cultures, merely because keeping faith that DOES do that only breeds death. There is more than ONE WAY, and to find the best way, one has to experiment. ITs just like the baby that walks for the first time, the more he walk the better he gets the more faith he has. HE MUST learn and discover how to walk and he may do it differently, perhaps with inferior technique until he finds what works best for him. What he finds may be how everyone else walks, but if the child has no legs, perhaps he'll walk differently. What ever the way, as long as he doesnt STEP on anyone, its just as good as any other. 39/39 # 107192 Very impressed, Yama... From: DR. APOLOGETIC on Fri Jun 23 1:31am Christianity, in any of its various forms, is very good for some I know many who could not, and would not have, survived without it... but I have found none of the organized forms of it that I can live with or under... God is a personal thing, and must be interpretted in a personal way... if you find a form that suits you, and happens to suit many others, than you have found your place... but for me, I have my own beliefs... Jesus said many great things, and suposedly did many great things... he may very well be part of the God-conglomerate, but this has no overwhelming effect on my beliefs... the Bible has many words of wisdom to impart to us, but is also full of inconsistencies, atrocities, and destroyed cities... I find as much wisdom in the words of the Buddha, Confuscious, and Benjamin Franklin... but I do not live my life by these ppl either... a person is no more and no less than the sum of his beliefs, and organized religions generally say that, if you fail to believe in their beliefs - that is, if you fails to be them - you will experience the equivilant of eternal punishment... well, in the words of Hall & Oates... "I can't go for that... no can do..." And for this I am branded as anything from an Atheist to a Pagan. Well, let me state for the record... I have great respect for Atheists... they have more courage than I do... and I have great respect for Pagans, too... they have more wisdom at their disposal than most religions, because they often are able to see through the patterns of the universe... but I am neither... you cannot label me, I have my own beliefs which in many cases coincide with 'normal' beliefs, but am strictly true to myself and no other... 9/19 # 107256 Beautiful... From: TIGRIS LENIS on Fri Jun 23 8:33pm It almost made me cry. 10/19 # 107289 Thank you Yama From: SUNSHINE on Sat Jun 24 1:44am for expressing exactly what I keep trying to explain to mom...just because something works for her doesn't mean it will work for me, or what will work for me may not work for Mike, ect...I think I have finally found what I have been looking for-and thank you Jimi for that... But as for the confidence thing...In christian Religions all I have found was guilt and sadness-don't do this or don't do that cause you will go to hell...God will strike you down for saying that...You had better be good casue Jesus is watching...if you go talk to the old lady down the street then you will go to heaven...You get forced into things not due to what YOU feel is right but what you feel will end up terrible if you don't... And I know that not all people are this way-but the majority of people I know-my entire family, all the Christian friends I had in Catholic school, my ex-hubbie and his friends...everyone that I KNOW-all have guilt born out of the "true"faith that they were brought up in...and what is really sad is that some people suffer their entire lives over it. My mother NEVER had an orgasm until AFTER her 6TH KID-because she was told if you like it then it is bad, sex is dirty UNLESS you are married-what makes is "CLEAN" after the papers are signed and "DIRTY" before? I have problems sexually due to YOUR TRUE FAITH-alot of if due to my mother and father never being close in public since that would give the children "SINFUL" ideas...what is sinful about sex in marriage. I grant this is not the religion but the people in it, but it was the religion that stressed to my grandparents and their grandparents "spare the rod spoil the child" and that shit like that... SUNNY 11/19 # 107359 well... From: THE GREEK SYNDICATE on Sat Jun 24 1:52pm agreement with last bunch o'posts. Personally I find hinduism and various other eastern religions to be much more healthy and reasonable than xtianity. examples... Sex is *good*. Unless not betwixt two consenting adults...simple, eh? One of the Hindu paths of life -- recognized as a responsible, rational, GOOD WAY TO LIVE -- is a quest for personal pleasure. As long as it doesn't hurt othr people, you don't acquire bad karma. Simple, eh? (the other paths, as I recall, are quests for material wealth, quests for enlightenment (the highest path, and better than the others, but no more responsible or acceptable -- if you feel like you want enlightenment, then it's good to seek it. If not, don't! You'll have a *bunch* more lives to play around with!) and one other one...hurm. Time to look up my eastern religion notes, eh? The core "bad thing" is not "sin." It is "ignorance." We are ignorant of our true nature (part of brahman (God)) and therefore lack perfection... by learning about our true nature and the nature of reality, we grow closer to God. I am expressing myself badly, I'll try to get a more comprehensible description ready soon... Things like that. Of course, Hinduism is not perfect -- it has all sorts of blatantly stupid elements in it, like the caste system. Still, it seems more reasonable to me than "jesus died, thus somehow suffering your sins for you." or whatever that is. ---the Greek Syndicate