5/6 # 105790   That's not the point.
From: TRITON on Fri Jun  9  3:26am

If there is anything I disagree with most on this issue, it is the idea 
that 'PROOF' is needed for this to be an interesting and relevant topic. 
My background is not in religion, but in physics, and traditionally, we 
have been among the first to question the Bible (as in Copernicus, 
Galileo, Carl Sagan).

      Although it's not easy to admit, physics and the other sciences 
are based on faith to a large degree.  I, personally, have never seen an 
electron, but I believe strongly in their existence.  Some physicists 
are working on describing the properties of a Big Bang that supposedly 
took place eighteen billion years ago, and without any eyewitnesses, it 
must take a lot of faith for them to believe their indirect (and very 
late) observations of the event.

     Even if the Bible were not strictly true in the sense that its 
version of God does not exist, I'm still interested.  There are many on 
this board who have no proof that faster-than-light travel exists, and 
yet many of their (fantasies?) would not be possible without that idea.  
If there is anything I have become tired of, it is science fiction that 
contradicts much of the 'provable' science I learned at Rolla.  Need I 
say more?

6/6 # 105813   I agree.
From: TEMPEST on Fri Jun  9  8:15am

Triton,
     Your having taken on the helm is appreciated.  Perhaps we can begin 
discussing alternate philosophies if everyone is so displeased with 
Christiantiy.  No written law says we MUST discuss Trinitarian-Theism 
and the Bible.

     Any suggestions?  And one MUST provide sources for their beliefs 
unless they expressly say that it is a *personal thing* and holds no 
validity to the whole.

7/13 # 105866   one thing
From: YAMABUSHI on Fri Jun  9  6:31pm

Triton- YOU HAVE indirect observation, that, at the very least, is 
enough, as the direct observation is impossible.

God cant be observed. He's an object of faith. Faith isnt substantial, 
or is it?

That brings me to what ive been studying for some time now. I can 
document what I say, but I have some specualtions (YEs, easily applied 
to Christianinty, but lets shift gears).

Major eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hindu as well as less known 
ones depend on a three-part method to what I will call 'actualization' 
(as in Maslow).  It consists of Mind, word and action combined to bring 
about ones intentions. I wonder, as some sects claim, if intention can 
be as realized as they some say (as in faithhealing, lets not harp on it 
PLEASE! and firewalking). Claimed in tibetan lore is actual change of 
the body® any ideas¿ The sub should die /philo is for this stuff.

8/13 # 105900   I deleted
From: S'TALON on Sat Jun 10 11:29am

     the orginial Pulpit for the reason of that I was sick of the 
argument, same one over and over. And since I created the board back in 
Jan. 87 (back then the Philospher's Stand), I felt it would have been 
irresponsible of me to filter a subbie that I created and managed. 
Hence, I deleted it becuase in my opinion it only led to user wars. 
Thanx for standing up for me Jimi and OWJ while I was busy and unable to 
log on. They're absolutely right, I never once got an answer to my 
question (prove the Bible), and I got quite sick of the board being used 
by certain segments of the userlog for prostelyzing their own 
narrow-version of the Bible.
                               "What does God need with a Starship?"
                                         -S'Talon

9/13 # 105946   Well put, S'Talon
From: TRITON on Sat Jun 10  8:15pm

Neutrality means giving both sides a chance.  I still have days when I 
think of times thumpers have tried to proselytize me at work and how I 
wanted to tell them how idiotic they were.  I dread the idea of meeting 
them now, because I'm afraid of blowing up.  However, I still don't 
understand how people can get so upset by debates on religion on the 
boards.  Users can filter subboards, ignore posts and email, etc., and 
generally avoid any mention of views they despise.  It is very different 
at work when your boss and coworkers have views that conflict with 
yours.  It is awkward whether you agree, disagree, or remain silent to 
comments that are contrary to your beliefs.

     However, in this case, even if the Bible is unprovable, that still 
doesn't make discussion irrelevant.  For example, a physics student at 
Rolla once told me of a discussion with his engineer roommate.  There 
was this physics problem that asked what would happen mathematically if 
you allowed a hypothetical magnetic field interaction to occur.  The 
engineer said the problem was baloney since that particular interaction 
would never occur in the first place.  My friend pointed out that in 
physics, we like to ask 'what if'.

       So what if the assumption that Jesus is Lord is ridiculous?  
Maybe that assumption leads to consequences that don't happen in the 
real world, but to explore those possible consequences could be very 
interesting.  I seem to recall that the mission of the original Starship 
Enterprise is to 'explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and 
new civilizations...'.  It is safe to say that none of us will be able 
to explore strange new worlds, but there are plenty of lives and 
civilizations to explore here on earth.  I want to find out what Fire 
Escape and the other thumpers are saying because the world would be very 
boring if only hackers and technocrats dictated our views on philosophy 
and reality.

10/13 # 106038   Interesting....
From: JIMI on Sun Jun 11  9:57pm

 I know the feeling Triton. Being a Pagan in this world isn't very 
easy.. Especially (sp?) if you have to do a prayer or adoration at a 
specific time of day... Somebody comes along and says," Wh are you 
standing at a wall and in a particular posture????  Your answer tends to 
make them sorta nervious.. I'm saying a adoration or rayer to.......... 
Why or you a Satanist????? No, I'm just not Christian.. Ah, so then by 
my .......... version of "The Tetrabiblios" your a Satanic Heathen Devil 
Worshiper..
 Interesting, I worship a "Lesser God (Daemon translated Lesser God, one 
who travels after Angels or other Gods bastardized verson of the word 
turned into Devil) Heathen (one who lives in the heath or country.. I 
live in the city.. makes sense to me..), Stanic.. Ah a worshiper of 
Shaitan or Shaytan, Egyptian Set Lord of Death and Destruction would sum 
it up... I doubt that highly... Do you know that your going to Hell? 
Hmm.. Interesting, I'am going to embrace "The Norse Goddess of the 
Underworld".. Sounds intense.. Interesting, since Hell was put into the 
Bible in the 14th century after they made contact with the 
Scandiniava's. Before than it was called "Hades".. thank you for the 
blessing.. Since the underworld in Norse mythology is where you elax and 
mellow out after your incarnate life sorta like a "Health Spa" of 
today.. Sorry , but the idea of a "Health Spa" is a view from modern day 
ideas..
  See howmuch you found out aboutme from just one Christian? Seems 
totally logical to me.. These people run the country too.. Makes me 
sleep good at night..

11/13 # 106052   Actually Jimi,
From: TRITON on Mon Jun 12  1:06am

that there are many non-theistic viewpoints and that I don't like to be 
lumped in with devil-worshippers simply because I prefer Nietzsche to 
Falwell.  However, I get the impression from your previous posts that 
you are interested in many supernatural interpretations of consciousness 
and destiny.  On my part, I tend to try to explain everything 
scientifically first.  That usually eliminates most other explanations 
involving spiritual things.

     As for the fact that Christians help run this country, I don't 
necessarily have a big problem with that.  Whether or not you agree with 
their spiritual beliefs, the fact that their religion has lasted so long 
must mean that deep down there are some truths in it even if the God 
part is incorrect.  When people tell me they are interested in New Age 
philosophies, I am more worried when they try to take control because 
many of their views are untested on large segments of society, and we 
don't know what will happen.

12/13 # 106067   what I always find
From: SUNSHINE on Mon Jun 12  3:13am

interesting is that the Christians who believe in a forgiving god who 
died for alls sins feel that those who don't believe that way are going 
to hell for eternity-some forgiving eh??? and the non-christians accept 
the others choice to believe in a myth-ie jesus as god... Sunshine

13/13 # 106084   Shhees!
From: TEMPEST on Mon Jun 12  7:29am

     I try to veer the subject away from Christianity awhile, and it 
veers right back.  Hmm, as far as Chrissy's comment is concerned, Jesus 
said, "It is not I who condemn them, their own sin condemns them."  They 
make the choice to reject the gift of eternal life--it is offered to all.

     Is anyone here interested in Islam?  I am reading the Koran 
currently, and would love to discuss the Koran and Islam, especially 
regarding parallels to Judaism and Christianity and application to 
modern society.

14/18 # 106128   my point
From: SUNSHINE on Mon Jun 12  3:07pm

exactly...if you don't accept the christian faith you are considered 
condemned by them...what happens if you don't accept the Jewish faith or 
the Wiccian faith or any other ones...SUNSHINE

15/18 # 106175   your on yer own
From: YAMABUSHI on Mon Jun 12  7:08pm

religions help us get along. However you dont it as long as ya dont 
hurt somebody is cool but don tread on me. yama

16/18 # 106195   Hmm..
From: JIMI on Tue Jun 13 12:40am

 No Triton,
   I was not lumping you in with the Christian Population. I believe 
there are 3 basic forms of religion in this Universe of ours.

  1. Monotheism: Being the belief in One God like the Christian IHVH or 
Allah or Mithrias called Shaytan. These all are examples of Monotheism 
in action...

  2. Polytheism: The belief in 2 o moe Gods or Godesses. Thus explianing 
the concept of IHVH (I=Yod the Father of All, H= He The Great Mother of 
All, V=Vau the Son or Sun, H= He the 2nd being the Daughter or if you 
wish the King, Queen and Prince and Princess.)

  3. Being Atheism: No belief in no god o Supernatural. Just pure 
Scientific Facts that can be tested in the Labritory (sp?).

  I know these are quitee poor definitions but, limited time and space. 
I didn't lump you in with the Christians, infact I would place you in 
the 3rd group. Logic has it's place in all forms of religion and 
science..

  All valid religions are built upon 1 Ultimate Truth, and one total 
Lie.. It is just Christianity is only about 2,000 years old. They have 
irradicated their enemy (being other faiths or creeds), they like to 
blend them in and absorb. Evertime they come across a a diety of another 
religion theey take attributes of him and place him on "their" devil. 
They ran into "The Horned God" named Pan and immediately "The Devil had 
horns.. They ran into Mithrias in Italy and Southern Europe and 
immediatley "The Devl had wings of a bat... They ran into Horus crossing 
Egypt, since one of his forms is a Hawk, The Devil got Talons...
Wow! Neato mode of thought their..  Anyway, just some thoughts on the 
subject..

17/18 # 106220   Some people...
From: TEMPEST on Tue Jun 13  6:11am

     Please, for people who say that thumpers can speak of nothing but 
Christianity, you people should be thumper-nominees.  GET THE HINT!  Do 
you want to continue discussing Christianity, or do you want to move on 
for a while?  If you want to continue discussing Christianity, fine, 
don't start jawing about what 'us thumpers' talk about then; if not, 
choose a bloody topic.

Jimi,
     Since you brought it up, and since no one seems to have any 
knowledge of Islam, how about discussing pagan (whoops), polytheistic 
philosophy?  A few questions to begin with:
     How did the Cosmos originate?
     Are the gods eternal?
     What is the justification for validity?

18/18 # 106250   ID JUST LIKE TO SAY
From: YAMABUSHI on Tue Jun 13 11:49am

that atheism ISNT a religion. The belief has NONE of the compoents of 
religion.

YOD, That is rather narrow dont you think?

Easily, there are combinations of those first two, and many combinations 
that dont fit your categories® methinx you should rethink® yama

19/20 # 106332   Jimi...
From: TIGRIS LENIS on Wed Jun 14  2:02am

  please continue on with your description of the pagan religion you 
embrace.  I'm also curious as to how you got involved in this religion.  
And for rituals...do you make them up or is there some sort of 
'handbook' for you to follow?

20/20 # 106361   Hmm...
From: JIMI on Wed Jun 14 12:21pm

 Interesting how the Cosmos was created well. If I looked Quabilistly, I 
would say before there was anything there was  a void. In this void 
exsisted nothing but, God or Ra (The Super Conscious). You could see it 
as Energy in it's "Purest State uncorupted by the Limitation of form.
Now Ra or God (who in this state would be Asexual having both sexes 
within himself) thought about things and decided to break himself down 
and define parts of himself. As he uttered the ideas they became before 
him. He said, "I'am male and I'am the povider and procurer,(in 
otherwards I have a sub-conscious mind). So now you have two points in 
this void. +---+ I now need a opposite of that to balance it out. I'am 
also the Bringer forth of life, Also, I'am form and the Consciousness 
that percieves it to be. I'am female. Now you have the Male which 
coesponds to energy and the female which coresponds to form. You have 
the Primal Essences of "The Universe"...

     If you wish to look at it like "The Big Bang Theory" for all you 
Buddist Students out there. HE uttered the words "I'am" The Male essence 
was the implosion and the female was the explosion. He vibtrated the 
Mantra "Aum"..

 Anyway, now you have the Sub-Conscious Mind (Male) and the Conscious 
which is Femal. You have The Soul, which is your part of God (the all), 
Sub-Conscious Mind which is Male, The Conscious Mind which is Female. 
You have but, to unite the three into one..

  By, using a system of enumerations called "The Quabala" or "The Tree" 
you can beak things down into 10 idea and concepts of God or yourself. 
You could also say that these were what God diagramed himself into or 
how he defined himself and the plan which he built us by..

 1. Kether, which corresponds itself to Intellegence..
 2. Chockmah, or Wisdom which corresponds to Reason.
 3. Binah, or Understanding which corresponds itself to Creation of 
    Ideas and activity and enegy of thought..
 4. Gedulah, or Chesed, Magnifience or Mercy. It corresponds to 
    imagination  and beneficence..
 5. Geburah, or Justice, which coresponds to the Chastisement of crimes 
    and deal with choosing...
 6. Tipereth, the Supreme Beauty, which corresponds to Harmony and 
    Judgement. It is thought of as the place of Kings. Since it is the 
    place of the Sun or Son. Where Christ sat when he said "No one goes 
    up to the father (Kether which is associated with the term "The 
    Crown") but, by me. You must in other words get to my height of 
    Spirituality to percieve my fathers..
 7. Netzach, or Victory  which coresponds to the progress of life also 
    to the sensorium or to sensibilty..
 8. Hod, or Eternal Order, which corresponds to that of order and inner 
    sense..
 9. Yesod, or the Foundation which corelates to fecundity and to true  
    ideas...
10. Malkuth which correlates to this world of form or matter...

     I must get going I hope this helps..
                  Jimi