To ->All From ->Bucknaked (#110) Sub ->Thank You. Date ->08/06/89 01:56:32 AM I thank you Dr. Bill for pointing out what I was going to say anyway. I am a Christian of the Catholic denomonation, a very persecuted sect from other Christian sects. I'm not mindless enough to say I agree with all the Catholic teachings but it is a faith I can deal with. I say that because I converted from a non-denominational church which taught that the Catholics as well as other Christian denominations were cults. Some Christian belief, feuding with another Christian faith. Anyway I grew weary of hearing that my music is evil, my thoughts were evil, and that every deed and human thought was from the devil, so I switched to a faith where I was allowed to ask questions and not be shunned. I also left because I was the youth group president at my previous church and was persecuted and shunned by other members because of certain activities I planned for the youth group. Harmless activities such as skating parties with secular music, dances, even a shut in where I brought games and played music which church elders did not approve of. These same church elders were no saints either. One being an alcoholic, one a child abuser, and the worst was a gossip. So not able to take the hipocracy I left where I wasn't wanted. As to the narrowness of Fire Escapes thinking one question: What will become of people who never have the oppurtunity to know Christ yet who lead a righteous life? Hell for lack of knowledge. I think not or is it a cruel God we serve. I do not believe that those of other religions will go to hell either. Do you truly believe that only Christians will be redeemed? No way. The God I serve is a compasionate God not a vindictive or cruel beast who would dispose of all humanity because of lack of knowledge. There are the righteous and worthy in all religions. Think about who you serve and what kind of God he/she/it is and then tell us you truly believe that only Christians will find salvation. To ->Bucknaked (#110) From ->Dr. Bill (#237) Sub ->Re: Thank You. Date ->08/07/89 06:37:34 PM For demonstrating that 'Christian' is a term with many definitions. Having spent 2 years at SLU, I know that what you say about the Catholic Church can be true. In theory, the only undebatable items in catholic 'Dogma' are those which have been pronounced upon 'ex cathedra' by the pope. this means that all the supposedly firm positions of the church such as those on birth control, abortion, female clergy, etc. are mostly CHANGEABLE! A friend of mine at SLU (a fransiscan friar) stated it best:"The Church (i.e. all Christians) has room for ALL opinions, but attention needs to be paid to the opinion of those who are the heirs of Peter (i.e. the Roman Catholic hierarchy)" My only trouble with Catholicism is with the oppressive application of the 2nd half of that statement. I admire your ability to put up with it ( I just read your answer to me on TDH, and I KNOW you aren't a bluenose) To ->Bucknaked From ->Fire Escape (#112) Sub ->Redemption Date ->08/08/89 02:40:52 PM I don't think God is at all unfair in expecting us (the creation) to play by His rules (the Creator). Who are we to tell God what is "fair", what is "just"? Does the pot say to the potter, "why did you make me this way?", No, of course it doesn't. What about the people who live righteous lives but don't trust in Jesus? They will be judged fairly (by GOD's Standards) for their sins, as ALL sin must be paid for. If they CHOOSE to pay for their own sin, that's their choice. The penalty for sin though is eternal death (separation from God), some call that hell. The name is irrelavent. Was that unfair of God? No of course it's not. It was their choice to pay for it. They could have just as easily have trusted Jesus to pay for it. Where's the injustcice? I don't see it. If one is truely innocent (without sin) and hasn't heard of Jesus's death for them, then they have no problem, no sin = no punishment. But you show me one sinless human and I'll show you a person saved apart from Jesus. I'll be waiting..... Fire Escape To ->Fire Escape (#112) From ->Bucknaked (#110) Sub ->Ghandi Fries!!!!!!!!!! Date ->08/08/89 05:29:06 PM The main problem with most organized religon is the narrow mindedness with thier thinking. Sure man sins it is his nature, just like the child who is told not to do something, and does it anyway and even more so because he was told not to. What you are telling me is that people who do not have the chance to even hear of the messiah Jesus are doomed to the eternal fires of Hell. The God I serve is a compassionate God. Also I ask you of the Jews, Gods chosen people. They do not accept the teachings of Christ as anything more than a profit so I guess they burn too. Are you always this right winged in all your views. So too allow you to understand my logic this is my theory on the subject. There is a God. He created man and the world we live in. He has for us an afterlife atleast for us worthy of it. As for religon remember every religon believes that they are right and all others are wrong. So FE what if you are wrong, and the muslims are right. Gee then I guess you fry. I believe that Jehovah, Allah, and God is all the same. We as Christians believe in Christ as our savior and if we reject Christ then we cannot go to Heaven. The muslims believe the teachings of Mohammud, if they reject them then they don't go to Nirvana or Paradise, whatever. The same goes for most of the large organized religons, in that there is a God and a teacher, profit, savior, messiah, or what have you, and there is a heaven, or a paradise or something at the end of the life cycle. Gee sound almost the same some coincidence. Oh well have fun ripping this arguement apart, oh yeah remember "Judge not lest ye be judged." To ->Bucknaked (#110) From ->Dr. Bill (#237) Sub ->a few things Date ->08/08/89 06:17:52 PM Nirvana is a Buddhist/Hindu concept, not Muslim, and is interpreted as a state of onenes with Enlightenment, or non-existence, or incorporation into the all-soul, depending on which sect and teacher you listen to. (trivia for comparative theology fans) The real problem with FE's (and other's) view of an exclusive salvation is not the sinless man/woman but the GOOD person, who had no way of coming to Christ during their life. This is most obvious in earlier times, but is still possible today, given that most of the world's people have less exposure to Christ than the average American has to the Buddha. Both of these great holy men have followers on both sides of the exclusivity question, and both have hitorical records that are colored with translation trouble, hidden agendas, and questionable origin. The true test of Mankind may be to define from this ink-blot of religions what it means to be good. To ->Dr. Bill (#237) From ->Bucknaked (#110) Sub ->I agree. Date ->08/10/89 03:22:01 AM I agree with what you are saying. I used the term Nirvana just as another generic term for heaven, not meaning it to be Muslim. I think that salvation is in the eye of the beholder and that no matter what religon you happen to be you must simply be what that religon means as good. For Christians that means to accept Christ as your savior and obey God's laws, for Muslims it is to accept the teachings of Mohammad and to follow Allahs laws. As for me I won't place myself in judgement of my fellow man because it is not my place but God's to be judge. To ->Bucknaked (#110) From ->SONGBIRD (#45) Sub ->Religion (what else?) Date ->08/10/89 10:11:45 AM I believe there is a God. I also believe that ALL religions were created wholly by HUMANS WITHOUT divine intervention in an attempt to organize both what they felt they understood and what they knew they did not understand. An excellent example of this is the way in which Galileo was persecuted for insisting that the Earth revolved around the sun. In case some of you don't know this particular kink of history, the church leaders of the time felt that a belief as the Earth as the center of the universe was central to their theology, and that their religion (Catholocism) would crumble if the physical truth about the universe saw the light of day. A parallel of these incidents was made into the movie "Planet of the Apes," where the spiritual leaders knew the truth about the intellectual potential of humans but this fact was contrary to their religion. (Racist and political issues were addressed as well; I'm not saying that this is all there was to the movie.) I believe God smiles benignly when we pray, not giving a diddly but not resenting it either, and that we fulfill our OWN needs. I further believe that what I say is true of FE's religion. It won't hurt her, but it won't help her either. It DOES have the power to hurt others, however, especially small children if they are told horrific tales of Satan and hell, and their little foibles overblown into 'sins' for which they can 'burn' for all eternity. God doesn't care what we believe or IF we believe. We do it for ourselves. IF there is an afterlife (and I think there probably is, but maybe I only want to) -- it doesn't include such a punitive, negative, unloving, judgemental God. The idea that God would doom all souls ignorant of his/her power -- or worse, those who have 'heard' and are insufficiently 'respectful' of his/her dictatorial naature -- to Hell for all eternity -- is ludicrous. She gets to say what she thinks, I get to say, and I get to be as dogmatic as anyone else... for those of you who have a calmer vision of God, I hope I have not offended. To ->SONGBIRD (#45) From ->Bucknaked (#110) Sub ->Why??? Date ->08/10/89 01:48:06 PM I sincerly hope that what you believe is not true cuz if it were then I ask: Why? I mean what is the point why suffer life tragedies for no coming reward. I mean the way you make it sound that a person such as Ted Bundy has the same for him as I do when I die. I can't see it. In most religons there is a reward for being good (a very generic term), as that religon sees as being good. I also believe God cares. It is a cold heart that sees God as an uncaring entity. I believe God has an active part in history. I do not believe as a lot of bible toters that God cares about every trivial thing. Such as praying to God to ask if you can afford the car you are pricing. I do however see God as a compassionate being who offers rewards for the righteous as well as punishment for the wicked. To ->Bucknaked (#110) From ->SONGBIRD (#45) Sub ->Ted Bundy ... Date ->08/11/89 09:31:47 AM and Hitler ... and a few other charmers of this world, I believe, still have a very big problem in the Afterlife. I think what we will have when we die is Clear Vision. We will see our actions EXACTLY for what they were, with all rationalizations and pretentions stripped away. We will see our actions, and what the real consequences were. I think we will all be surprised to find that minor things (we thought) we did had profound repurcussions -- some good, some bad. I also think we'll understand a our impact on the world. To me, that would be the ultimate punishment for Ted Bundy, Hitler, the leaders of the Inquisition, etc. -- to see what they did, and comprehend the incredible evil, and have to live with it for all eternity. I think that would be worse than any fire or brimstone. That belief also makes me a kinder person, a more responsible person. I do think we'll have a sense of perspective; everyone makes mistakes, after all. The part I DON'T like about this scenario is that perhaps Ted and Adolph were S-O-O-O-O crazy that they truly couldn't help themselves. In my scenario they would understand this also. I'm not completely comfortable with it, but I try to look at religion, and God, as it really is, not through the colored glasses of organized belief. IF there's an afterlife, that's how I think it will be. To ->All From ->Fire Escape (#112) Sub ->Sin Date ->08/11/89 11:46:48 AM I don't believe that God is unjust enought to condemn an "innocent" person. However, If you can find me a TRULY "innocent" person, I will show you a truely pardoned person. Infants, preborn and some profoundly mentally handicapped individuals would fall into the truely innocent catagory, which would mean that God would be merciful to them. But I don't think anyone else is truely innocent, no matter how "good" he seems to be. God doesn't condemn people for not having heard or believed in Jesus, rather He condemns them because of their sin. Sin means to "miss the mark", to "fall short of the goal". God says the goal is perfection. "Be thou perfect as I am perfect". So obviously, All rational and mature adults have fallen short, because I don't believe any person even has it in him to be perfect. This is why everyone should want a savior, because they can't do it on their own effort. The people who have never heard or believed in Jesus will not be condemned if they lived PERFECTLY before God and never transgressed they personal ethics or the ethics of their society. Personally, I doubt that anyone could go their whole life without transgression. BUT, PROVIDED that THEY DID, then they are not condemned. God being JUST, HAS to PUNISH SIN, regardless of where you live. It is only those who allow God to redeem them and rely on His provision, that will be pardoned. Abraham and Moses, we justified before God, NOT because they believed in Jesus, BUT because they TRUSTED God to save them, and did not rely on their own good deeds and Good life. They admitted their imperfection and looked to God for salvation. This is the essence of salvation that was fully realized in Jesus. So it is to the benefit of all imperfect people that we point them to a savior, so that they will not condemn THEMSELVES! A Narrow-minded Fire Escape.. [To ] Then where... [Board ] Your Religious Views... [From ] SONGBIRD (#45) [Number ] 72 of 75 [Subject ] (say WHAAAAAT????) [Date ] 08/13/89 05:39:18 PM did you park the Christian concept of original sin? You know, the one that required baptism to remove? [To ] Fire Escape (#112) [Board ] Your Religious Views... [From ] Dr. Bill (#237) [Number ] 73 of 75 [Subject ] Re: Sin [Date ] 08/14/89 08:59:13 PM Your logic is faulty. Your version of God condemns my hypothetical chinese man who lives a good if not perfect life BECAUSE HE HAS NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST! If you remember my case in point, he lived a very good life in China around 50-120 A.D. and now burns in Hell if your opinion of God is correct. A similar man of medieval Europe , who would not only know of Christ but have Christ enforced upon him by the Church, would be in Heaven. By your definition of the requirements of salvation, the vast majority of people who have ever lived are condemnedby their birthplace, era, and society. How practical is it to expect all people to accept Christ, when the majority have either never heard of him or have heard of him thru men who have raped and pilaged their countries??? Can you blame Ho Chi Minh for calling christianity a religion of beasts after being raised in a country which good, christian, France had treated as sub-human??? I am shocked at the popularity of Christ in South Africa, where the most popular Afrikaaner church considers Blacks to be "soulless". Were I a s. african black,I would not follow an Anglican Bishop, butrevile him for his faith. The reputation of Christi~r~r{nity ~rspread by misguided missionaries still succeeds in hiding Christ from people, and to require people to follow Him for their only shot is truly unjust. [To ] Dr. Bill (#237) [Board ] Your Religious Views... [From ] Frank Tang (#111) [Number ] 74 of 75 [Subject ] S. Africa [Date ] 08/17/89 07:01:33 PM The whole reason Falwell and his ilë support S. Africa is because it is a fundamentalist, christian nation. Thå fundies would rather see white, christian domination continue, ratheò than risk some other religion come to the fore. [To ] All [Board ] Your Religious Views... [From ] Fire Escape (#112) [Number ] 75 of 75 [Subject ] Chinese... [Date ] 08/18/89 04:31:30 PM Bill, The chinese man in your example is not condemned for not accepting christ as savior, rather as I have pointed out many times now, He condemns himself because of his sin. Sin is what condemns a person, not wether or not they know or don't know Jesus. Knowledge of Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with guilt before God. It is our sin that separates us from God, not Jesus. The point is that your chinese man is still guilty of sin regardless of wether or not he has ever heard of jesus. The other man who was raised in a christian nation or taught by a church, isn't NECESSARILY saved either. You see, he might be condemned as well, REGARDLESS of his knowledge, mainly because he has merely subsituted "church"ianity for humanism. Sin is sin, not matter what form it takes. Faith in good deeds, be they in the name of Jesus, Buddah or self will not redeem a sinner. A solid understanding of Christianity reveals that mans so-called religious people are not forgiven because in their religiousity they are still not looking to God for redemption. Works-righteousness doesn't cut it in any circumstance, be they heathans in china or so called "christians" in a so called "christian" country. As for Original sin Songbird, that is a DOCTRINE of some christian sects, but as with all doctrines, it is a matter of interpretation. I believe the greater teaching of the Bible is that man is PREDISPOSED to sin, not Born with any in itself, but only born with the inclination and predisposition to err. Thus there can be true innocents among those who are unable to sin due to mental and physical incapacity. They have the potential by NATURE, but are not necessarily guilty of commission at birth. There are many good books on the theological support of either viewpoint. Fire Escape