To ->Oliver Wendell Jones (#107) From ->Terry (#257) Sub ->other views Date ->07/05/89 08:26:41 AM Sorry about the line noise. If you are bothered by what you think are strange religious views, then why not just enter S(kip) for the religious board and eliminate the hassle? To ->all From ->Frank Tang (#111) Sub ->stuph Date ->07/05/89 09:29:42 AM Finally there some more people that think like me on this BBS! Now it won't be a gang attack on me when I express my views (just joshin'). To ->Frank Tang (#111) From ->SONGBIRD (#45) Sub ->Ohhhh Frank... Date ->07/05/89 10:51:51 AM We'll still jump you! Count on it! (Darn, I need new batteries.) Oliver you took the words (and apparently the beer) right out of my mouth. But it doesn't matter. I wouldn't step out for anything less than ice-cold boiled shrimp anyway... Since God is mostly what we create in our own minds to make comprehendable the incomprehendable, s/he (doncha hate that?) changes continuously. The thing behind 'God' that is the real thing is probably unchangeable but our feeble minds can't comprehend. Some truth seeps through our images of God although sometimes I think we try mightily to stomp it out wherever it appears. Religion is a group of people to gather together and agree on a group perception of what they feel God is. The good groups keep thinking. The bad groups spend an inordinate amount of time pointing fingers at anyone who joined a different group with a different system for explaining God or who have chosen not to join a group (especially theirs). I joined a group but MY group is one of the GOOD groups who don't point fingers at other groups (and that's a lie). To ->All From ->Ratte (#109) Sub ->Change and Perfection Date ->07/05/89 12:43:39 PM OK.... Shrimp it is... Silver Sword: This is a very interesting theory that you have... It definitely deserves attention and refinement. However, when I speak of change, I refer to it on a more physical level, such as the "creation" or Armageddon. While I understand that the latter can be easily attributed to mankind, the former would obviously come about through a force much greater. If this force is "God" (and I use that term to collectively identify the deities of the various religions), would this creation not involve a "change" in the "mind" of God? If not, you are almost (but not necessarily) forced into an argument for infinity. If you believe that change is involved, then it strikes me that the concept of the perfection of God is somewhat compromised. After all, perfection by its very nature (as it is defined) can only be weakened into another state, not improved upon. If you wish to bring the human relationship with God into the picture, then there are many stories in the various religious books in the world that would also imply such changes-- generally through the direct intervention of God. Oliver kindly brought up several of the more nasty christian stories. I dont care much for discussing these because such stories could have been easily embellished or could be attributed to mental illness or some other affliction of those depicted or those depicting them. But an example of such intervention of God may be found in Sura 21 of the Islamic Koran: It is the story of how the prophet Abraham had destroyed all of the Idols (except 1) of a polytheistic religion, and was sentenced to be burned alive for it. Before he could be placed into the fire, God commanded the fire to be cool to the touch of Abraham, thereby sparing him (almost all religions have such examples, Islam was chosen at random to avoid offending what I assume to be a christian majority...) In any case, the intervention of God in such instances implies a "change" in the "mind" of God, and this interests me intensely because of the seemingly universal claim of religion that God is perfection. A serious problem arises; not with the perfection of God, but rather the application of Human characteristics, theories, and emotions to God. It is not only change or perfection to which I refer, but also the "desires" of God; the concept of Gods desires may only be understood by Man (and Woman) kind in a limited way, just as perfection may. Hence my little perfection argument.... However I am open to and definitely welcome alternative theories.... Oh, and thanx for the definition of religion Songbird... I would never have come up with that.... 'not exactly what I was looking for, but I am appreciative of your input... One other thing.... Why do people constantly defend other peoples right to post on this board? If someone is insulting, just ignore it... just as I ignore your retaliations against them (they don't know any better, so leave it alone, or go start a civil rights board....) To ->Ratte (#109) From ->The Silver Sword (#25) Sub ->well.. Date ->07/05/89 02:22:38 PM Ratte, I don't believe in a perfect god. I mean, if we are made in his image, then he can't be all THAT perfect! I mean, does that mean that God is a killer, drug-user, a BBSer, an arguer, a politician, a priest, a bomber, etc? nah...all 'god logic' is too flawed..I say he just is what we want to believe in him as! To ->RATTE From ->SONGBIRD (#45) Sub ->defense Date ->07/08/89 09:08:47 AM Well, see, if we run out of religious issues to argue about then we'll argue about anything else handy. If the argument is about who should and shouldn't post, well, that's as good as any. This board isn't really for religious issues (grin)... it's for all the compulsive arguers. We ought to call it AA (arguers anonymous.) To ->ALL From ->D.C. (#2) Sub ->Arguers A non mouse Date SU 07/08/89 10:29:27 AM "I do not argue.¢ 'you do too...§ "No I don't¢ 'yes, you do argue' "I never argue with anyone." I think I could start up a 900 number for arguements. It doesn't really matter what is discussed, people would just love to argue about anything. Hey! maybe we can get a 900 for the message base.... Naw, guess not. To ->All From ->Fire Escape (#112) Sub ->Thought you'd gotten rid of me... Date ->07/09/89 04:42:12 PM No such luck. I was on vacation you see. Glad to see you have all thought up some nice arguments while I was away :) Couldn't do any better than the age old "Change versus perfection" argument? Awww, I was hoping you all would find something original. Sure you could easily quote your philosophers and I could then quote mine, and we would get no where really. My philopher's better then your philosopher so, "Nyah"; type of argument. No thanks. I will say a few things though, just to set the record straight. God never allowed human sacrifice at anytime in the history of his dealings with mankind. He destroyed nations who practiced it. What you view as the injustices of God, I view as the justice of God. I don't question his motives or his right to punish. I don't think God has ever changed his thoughts, views or personage in anyway. He has always been both creator and savior from eternity past, there is no change involved, he has always been thus. Perfection means without fault. How can we as faulty creatures (by our own demise) judge the perfection of that which we cannot understand? Talk about your wastes of time. If only the Spirit of God can understand the things of God, then what hope has unregenerate man of understanding that entity which he scorns? About an ice-cube's chance in hell. If you want to understand God, seek His spirit and he will reward you by revealing his nature to you. It's not through intellectual pursuit that one knows God, but it is spiritually discerned, a gift given to all in Christ Jesus. He's the door, and it's never locked. To ->FE... From ->Oliver Wendell Jones (#107) Sub ->Thingz... Date SU 07/10/89 02:43:51 AM Well, your interpretation of God may be great for you, and for many others, but I can't live with that... I cannot worship a being who will not reward an intellectual pursuit as well as a spiritual one, because to me intelligence and spirituality are one in many respects... without the intelligence, there can be no spirituality, and without spirituality (the on-going quest for the unknown) there can be no intelligence... the God I worship also can be fathomed by us 'mere mortals'... I will not worship a being that has set himself so far beyond us that we cannot understand him... and before you go making any assumptions, as far as I'm concerned I worship the same being you do... I think we just see him in different ways... I also cannot pretend to respect a being that did some of the horrible things spoken of in the Old Testament under the banner of Justice... so I choose to believe that either the text is wrong or that he has changed to better suit the times... or perhaps change isn't the correct word, since a perfect being cannot change... perhaps grown is the word I'm looking for... I'm not sure... it's awfully late... %=) To ->Fire Escape From ->Ratte (#109) Sub ->Pursuits Date ->07/10/89 07:26:15 AM First of all, I gotta say I'm glad you are back and that I (hehehe) really like your choice of handle. As for the age of the argument that I used-- It probably wasn't old or simple enough. You see what kind of response it got here... I really am not terribly sure about your Ideas... Especiallly those of spiritual pursuit. There is a school of Islamic philosophy that believes that scripture was intended for the common people who are incapable of using higher intellectual processes, and I am inclined to agree with them on that point. After all, the interpretation of some book in its whatever hundredth edition, the memorization of that interpretation, the collation of that information, and the regurgitation of that information. Not only are you making minimal use of your capacity to reason, but are professing to it!! Had you been an Indian (meaning from India, not America), would you believe as strongly in the volumes of the Vada? Is your spiritual belief socially conditioned or is it chosen? You can rest assured that my choice not to believe in the "spiritual" teachings of MANKIND was my own decision, one that I probably would have made regardless of what religious scribblings were placed into my hands at such a tender age. I simply refuse to worship any deity that man has so thoroughly interpreted for his OWN good, rather than to "please" the deity as is claimed. Besides that, it is still, in my opinion, enormous conceit on the part of man to claim that he knows what this God does or does not want, or to KNOW that man was created in the "image of God". Pure drivel from the folks who brought you things like "The Earth is at the center of the Universe". And it is continued by the same people who commissioned Descartes to disprove certain theories that are very important to scientific thought today (and LOOK what HE came up with!!!!). At any rate, I cant believe that you choose to sit and interpret some book that for all you know was written by a prehistoric Manson family, instead of using your noodle. And don't be so quick to judge my choice of arguments... I had to wait until YOU came back to get anything substantial in return... To ->The above poster From ->The Headless Pig (#175) Sub ->The Bible Date SU 07/10/89 05:01:56 PM I just can't understand the faith in a book, written thousands of years ago, changed and updated from generation to generation, and not the actual word of a god. ...only the interpretation of what they believe it wants. The one thing that I can state is by looking at the world today... How many wars would be vanquished by the subtraction of religion? Any Comments? Heh... (stirring up Poo-Poo) THP To ->The Headless Pig (#175) From ->SONGBIRD (#45) Sub ->Well I always say... Date ->07/10/89 08:41:08 PM GO WITH YOUR STRENGTHS!!! To ->Most From ->Oliver Wendell Jones (#107) Sub ->What do you expect? Date SU 07/10/89 11:51:56 PM Well... I can believe in a God who's prime interest is humanity and any other intelligent races he happened to create... why would he have created us at all unless he was bored and needed something to do... I mean, let's face it... there probably aren't many BBS's for omnipotent deities... I mean, what would be the point? "Just thought I'd tell ya about the new movie starring Hermes..." "Oh, I already knew about that..." "Yeah, I know you did..." The whole thing would get boring after a while... -Stating my beliefs with comic reliefs... To ->all From ->Frank Tang (#111) Sub ->the big guy Date ->07/11/89 06:14:27 PM That's right, you can't find somethinç like this 'god' fellow by thinking about it. Put your brain on the shelf¬ listen to dogma, fork over the bucks. That's what faith is. To ->Most From ->Oliver Wendell Jones (#107) Sub ->Yeah well... Date SU 07/12/89 12:57:04 AM I'm afraid my karma ran over my dogma, so I'll just hafta keep thinking like a rational human being... To ->Oliver Wendell Jones (#107) From ->Ratte (#109) Sub ->Comic Relief Date ->07/12/89 08:16:13 AM Honestly speaking sir Oliver, I might not visit this board quite so often if it weren't for you........ To ->Oliver From ->SONGBIRD (#45) Sub ->I'd like to post. Date ->07/12/89 12:48:49 PM I really would. But I'm laughing too hard!!!! To ->All From ->Fire Escape (#112) Sub ->God Date ->07/12/89 01:07:49 PM Faith doesn't disqualify understanding. C.S. Lewis best described true faith as a trust grounded in reason. Aquinas spoke of faith seeking understanding. What I am saying is that God meets us on a spiritual and emotional level before we can understand and know Him intimately. When Jesus spoke of knowing the One True God and His Son, he used the word "Ginoskos". This word was a term of endearment, or intimacy. It's far more than a superficial intellectualism - or knowing ABOUT something, it involves a deeper knowing, as one would know their best friend, it involved both the heart and the mind. Paul echoed the sentiment when he said that it was with the Heart one trusted and was saved, and with the mouth (or the mind) that one confessed unto salvation. Many people miss heaven by 18 inches - the space between the mind and the heart. You can know about God and you can be full of philosophy and knowledge, but unless that knowledge becomes personal and touches your heart in such a way that your whole spirit changes, what have you gained? When you let God touch the heart, he also transforms the mind. You say you desire knowledge.. well wisdom and knowledgå are found in God but you must open your heart in order to let them in. To ->GOD From ->Vern (#113) Sub ->FAITH Date SU 07/12/89 05:16:45 PM I think that Faith has everything to do with in your upbringing. I'm Catholic... but I belive in birth control.... it's all in what YOU think what is right and what is wrong® My DIMES worth. hehehe To ->all From ->Frank Tang (#111) Sub ->faith Date ->07/12/89 07:34:47 PM Or, as Joesph Goebbels said in hió unpublished novel MARTIN: "It does not matter what you believe¬ so long as you believe."