06/12/89 15:04 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape I believe God said, "You shall not make for yourselves an image in the form of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the waters below.." (exodus 20:4). Psalm 97:9 says that all who worship images are put to shame. Romans 1:23 tells us that it is reprobate to exchange the immortal God for grave images. Isaiah 40:18 asks us what possible image or symbol can represent the Almighty God? It is to insult God to even attempt to represent His person with an image or symbol. I know the Muslims agree on this point as well. I'll give them credit for having something right at least. 06/12/89 15:12 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Per request..(space bar here if you are not interested in what the Bible records Jesus as saying about Himself)..the quotes of Jesus concerning His deity (not just the Son of God, BUT GOD the Son). John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one." John 14:7-9 - "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him. Phillip said, 'Lord, show us God the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: "Don't you know me Phillip? Even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father?". Don't you believe that I am in the father, and that the Father is in me?." When asked by the Pharisee's if He was the Messiah (who according to the prophesies is to be GOD WITH US - Immanuel - hence the Messiah IS God). Jesus replied, "You are right in saying I am." (See Luke 22:67-71 and Matthew 26:63-68). It was for claiming to be the Messiah, GOD with Us that Jesus was crucified for. Blasphemy carried the death penalty in Jewish Law. If He was not claiming to be God, how could they charge him with Blasphemy? Jesus also claimed to know Abraham personally. He said he lived before Abraham did. And the Jews understood him, they asked him how he could have known their father since he was not yet 40 years old. Only GOD is PRE-existent. Jesus is the INCARNATE God. The second person of a uni-plural God. Fire Escape 06/12/89 15:29 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Of course you can't see that. It's not logical to have an absolute moral standard unless you ALSO have an absolute God. Deny one, and the standard quickly falls to situationalism and relativism. 06/12/89 17:07 IRONMAN ironman Also, when I referred to "independent sources" , I was referring to independent RELIABLE sourcesŪ Sheesh. 06/12/89 18:43 SYSOP blah what is reliable.....a bunch of people agree on something and it become reliable....i don't think so....not at least in the "scientfic way thinking" (damn word wrap!)....have to read those again FE.....my memory isn't what it should be....Sir Ion 06/12/89 18:48 SYSOP blah but then....why do the pay homage to mecca.....why do we hang crosses around our necks....why do catholics have beads, statues of saints, holy relics, holy water....etc. all the trapings of symbolitic magic...hum... i don't get it... and i know the church only adopted these parctices to appese the local cultures need for their magic rituals.....substitue one for the other...(many church HOLYdays are the same day of early alternate religious holy days).....im sorry...but the church gets on my nevers......Sir Ion 06/13/89 00:26 OWENJ The Grand Guignol Afraid your wrong on a coupla points, FE... 1) I never denied an absolute God... I just disagree with many of your notions... 2) I believe that God's definition of sin is probably more along the lines of "Doing something you know is wrong"... I refuse to worship any being, whether he created me or not, if he plans on causing eternal misery for those ppl he created that don't worship him in a specific way... millions of Hindus, Buddhists, etc in hell? I can't deal with that... sorry... -Getting deeper into this discussion that I usually like to... 06/13/89 01:07 GERBIL childhood trauma and again, fe gives us these words from her idol, a mere book of mere words. If she understood the IDEAS, well that would be different, but words without understand is idol-worship, is it not? 06/13/89 01:12 JIMI Jimi What did I mean by "Eater of Souls", and God of extinct volcano? I would be glad to tell you that Jehova was a God of a Volcano and he theb then got thust to be the Monotheistic God of a older Polytheistic Religion. His volcano is where Mt. Ararat is today, he also demanded HUMAN SACRIFICE.. Really Pro-Life to me.. 06/13/89 15:22 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Human sacrifice? Hmmm... I elect the most devout amongst us... Fire Escape!!! 06/14/89 03:22 PHOENIX phoenix No! Not Fire Escape!! She's pretty cool. 06/14/89 08:59 CORDLESS God of Norelco But only Fire Escape is worthy. 06/14/89 11:16 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- But maybe we should save the Holy Mohawk? 06/15/89 12:15 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Did I EVER say that the "church" hadn't screwed up? I personally happen to agree that the institution of "holy" days on days previous held sacred by other religions is blatantly "klingon" (to borrow a phrase from an old friend). It has the mentality of "Oh gee, These people can't deal with God personally, so let's make Him acceptable by dressing Him up to their cultural and religious tastes. The ends justify the means BS". ACK! I HATE that. Holy Water? BLAH! Beads? BLAH! Candles? BLAH! Statues? BLAH! These are things men have added to their faith, things which the Bible doesn't tell us to add. How can we add anything to our relationship with God? We come in empty handed and everything we have is given to us. How presumptuous of us to think we can do anything to enhance or relationship with God. Rituals and images are mere claptrap and obscure God. When you know the real thing and He dwells within, why put rituals and smbols between you. What are we trying to hide? God sees us as we really are, He's sees right through all the "religious mumbo-jumbo". AS Mike Stand might say, He's a Gut-Level God. He's not in temples built by human hands. You can't stuff Him in an idol or a symbol. And he most certainly doesn't dwell on Volcanoe tops. The God who made the world is everywhere. And there's nothing "holy" about mohawks, though they do keep one cooler in the Summer I admit! :) 06/16/89 02:40 JIMI Jimi I guess the creed improvise, adapt, and overcome applies here huh? 06/16/89 18:38 IRONMAN ironman Huh ? Expand, please . 06/17/89 11:39 SHAFT INFOMANIAC I hope I'm doing this properly, but. I'm always fascinated by folk who quote the Bible. I suggest first, you read it all the way through. Then read the history of the Bible, starting with the only script Jesus ever wrote (the stories say) a stick drawing in the sand. Now, it it some thought as to who put the Bible together. It was a political cartel formed by the Emporer Constantine. Some of the bibilical encounters have as many political and social meanings as they do spiritual meanings. The fact is this. Quoting the bible does not make the bible true. Living the Bible does more for its credibility than shouting from an altar. If you are a light that attracts troubled people, you have done more than if you're a bullhorn that drowns out the competition. This is why I resent the evangelistic movement. It exists only because of spiritual laziness, not because of bibilical legitimacy. My God I've slept with a whore, said Jimmy Swagart. Forgive me. To hell with Jimmy (redundant). A real Christian would have gone and apologized to the woman for leading her further down a path that he says is wrong. He did what he always does. Put on a performance. That story is in the Bible to, if you look for it, you know, the john is as guilty of hurting the whore as the whore. Go be a friend to a lonely old person and cut the crap about whether jesus is god or not. The alternative of he was god or a liar is crap. That's not true. The alternatives is the scripes were right or wrong. And that's all that is in question. Before you become a philosopher, practice some life. wisdom is a result, not an intuition. 06/18/89 01:22 IRONMAN ironman "...cut the crap about whether Jesus is God or not." ? HmmmŪ As far as befriending an old person, check out the Altenheim in North St. Louis. Plus, the Scriptures say Jesus was God. So, if the question of whether Jesus was God or not is moot, then ......well, let's throw out the Scriptures, hey ? I agree with one point which runs through your post: ( with apologies to the person I borrowed it from ) " Don't talk the talk unless you're willing to walk the walk ". 06/19/89 08:35 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Well, even the best products must be properly marketed... 06/19/89 09:19 THUMPEST thumpest I fully agree with fire escape on thisŪ She seems to have a good head on her shoulders. 06/19/89 13:11 WITSL Fred Witsl HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, gotcha FE. You ARE WRONG. The Hebrew word used in the ten commandments that is taken as murder did NOT mean first degree premeditated murder. It meant premeditated murder without notifying the person to be killed. Meaning, if you did not say "Hey dude, I'm going to kill you" you were committing a sin (or stepping out of fellowship with God). But of course, the commandments are useless and mean nothing since we are under a new "ruling" that starts after a certain part in Acts and ends with Revelations. Unfortunately, can't remember where that certain part is. Should be after the 12 were baptized by fire, but not sure. (Anyone want an explanation of why there was 12 who were baptized by fire (what confirmation is based on)???????) You know, there is only one person I can't stand: a Born Again that I catch being wrong in public. - Fred "definitely not a Born Again, but definitey Bored Again" Witsl 06/19/89 16:31 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Care to document your sources Fred? Everyplace I have looked up "rasach" it is defined as premeditated murder. This is obviously murder of a human apart from justice (which God commanded - ie..stoning of murderers, blasphemers and adulterers). It holds the idea of "revenge or unjust or undeserved killing" which is what we translate "murder" to mean. And yes, we are not inondage to "LAW" as you mentioned. In Christ we are governed by the Holy Spirit. There are MANY people in the uppper Room at Pentecost Fred. Where do you get this idea that only 12 were annointed with the Spirit? God pours out His Spirit on ALL believers, and he began this on Pentecost as recorded in ACts 2:1-47. If you read the WHOLE chapter you will see that 3,000 believed on the Lord that first day and thus received the gift of the Holy Spirit as Peter explained in 2:38. Fire Escape 06/19/89 18:09 SYSOP no iris and let me tell ya.....when It (god) pours on you....you know it...and stains are a bitch to get out..... :) Sir Ion 06/20/89 02:34 CRYSTAL SUNSHINE Just a note that I had thought about as I was reading all of this...some are quoting "independent sources" and someone else said something about those being like the national enquirer...why couldn't the bible be considred by non believers just like the national enquirer...there is no as to abouve...I ran out of space... there is no proof of the bible other than christian faith that brought it down through the ages...it was a bunch of people who decided to write stories of how to live a good life or else and people believed it...it dealt with prostitutes who were pretty sleazy sounding, taxes, forcasts(the end of the world),a man who could walk on water and heal the dead, and even rose from the dead...sounds like a Grimm Fairy tale to me...so prove to me that the bible is crediable other than Faith and maybe you can talk to me about the rest...I believe Jesus lived and walked this earth, but so did Crowly and from what I have heard he could do all that Jesus was claimed to do. 06/20/89 12:16 FROM: WALT Walt TO: ALL SMRY: Fire Escape- Just one possibly menaingless point---The old C.S. Lewis argument about Jesus' divinity (either he was God or a dangerous lunatic) is not valid. If a dangerous lunatic says that two plus two is four, is it still four? I think so. Therefore one can learn from what the bible says about Jesus without believing that he was God incarnate. 06/20/89 15:23 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Or is that a good mohawk on her head? 06/20/89 15:24 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Kudos, Sunny. 06/20/89 15:25 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Too bad he didn't state simple, logical facts like "2+2=4". Instead, he sprouted mythological bullshit that's open to ridicule... PHY MSG# 23729 06/20/89 15:50 FROM: WALT Walt TO: ALL Medic---He sprouted mythological bullshit? I wish I could have seen that! Poor guy; is that like a bad case of hives? Did it upset the people that had to be around him to see mythological bullshit sprouting on the poor guy? Simply awful. Seriously though-what do you mean by mythological bullshit? Back up your assertions or they are meaningless. 06/20/89 16:42 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Miracles etc... For False Christs and False Prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect (believers) - If that were even possible. So be on your guard; I have warned you of all these things ahead of time. (Mark 13:22-23) The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. (2nd Thessalonians 2:9-10) I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - Jesus (John 14:6) 06/20/89 19:49 IRONMAN ironman What I was saying , many posts ago, is that there are SECULAR posts which speak of Jesus, etc. 06/20/89 19:57 IRONMAN ironman Walt, you are incorrect. If I say I am God, there are two possiblilities: 1. I AM God. 2. I am NOT God. If #2 is correct, and I really believe and state repeatedly that I AM God, then: I am a nut. 06/21/89 08:03 CORDLESS God of Norelco There are other possibilities: 3. If there is a god it is unknown and probably unknowable. 4. The concept of god was invented by folks who don't understand possibility 3. 06/21/89 08:05 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Meaningless? That's exactly the point. You can look up "mythology" in the dictionary... it's really quite simple, really. It's just my assertion that Christianity and the like are no more valid than Roman gods and godesses, etc. 06/21/89 08:07 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- "False Christs" and "False Prophets"... hah... that's just professional jealousy amongst Christians... Ironman, did you REALLY say secular "posts"? I didn't realize that BBS's had been around that long...