05/16/89 08:14 MEDIC You aren't loved. So God is just zis megalomaniac guy, yes? "Oooh, I just have such ZEAL and FERVOR for you nifty cats... so obey my word or be cast into the flaming pits where sinners are locked in closets and forced to hear Boston albums!" 05/17/89 11:20 WITSL Fred Witsl Well, I have repeatedly wrote down in books that I'm perfect. Everything I write states that I'm perfect. I say I'm perfect. So, I must be God. 05/17/89 14:25 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Did you rise from the dead Fred? Jesus not only claimed to be a perfect God but he proved it. That is the difference. 05/17/89 15:47 MEDIC You aren't loved. Proved it? Can you offer proof that he proved it (grin)? No, of course not. I know, I know, there are historical records of this event (and, come to think of it, the conflict of Beowulf and Grendel was also well-documented too [bigger grin]). 05/17/89 20:13 SYSOP bitter & twisted whats so perfect about raising the dead.? if its anything likå get -ting up at 6:30 am. christ better not get around to me® causå im likely to smack him a good one® i certianly did mù mother a few times 05/23/89 13:42 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Perfection is not in rising other people form the dead, it is in defeating death YOURSELF. Jesus raised himself from the dead. Only a perfect person is delivered from the power of death. The wages or the penalty for sin (imperfection) is death. Only one who is sinless can return from the dead on his own power. Death has no power where there is no sin. This is the proof Jesus offered that he had indeed defeated sin and death through His historical death and subsequent resurrection. 05/23/89 18:55 VENOM H killer Fire Escape, So what your saying is anyone who sins goes to hell.. is that it?? Youve lost me, please explain!! you dont go to hell even if you sin??? sounds odd to me, are you catholic? 05/24/89 00:03 SYSOP bitter & twisted ahahahhahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Sir Ion 05/24/89 08:02 MEDIC You aren't loved. If she was Catholic, and she believe any sin would send her to Hell, she would be as doomed as doomed can be. After all, even masturbation is a mortal sin in that flakey religion... 05/24/89 17:32 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Yes, that's what I am saying Venom. ALL sin, that is EVERY sin separates us from God. Perfection gives salvation, Jesus in you gives you that! 05/24/89 17:34 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape You see, all people need perfection in God's eyes. Since we can't acheive that on our own (because we are imperfect by nature), God offers it to us as a gift which we receive by faith. Jesus is the perfection that saves, when you trust in Him to be your perfection in your place (to pay for your shortcomings so to speak) God credits His perfection as your own and you enter into an everlasting saving relationship with the perfect creator. It's not by works, it's free. No one has any hope of Salvation apart from this gift of Grace through Jesus Christ. All we can do is accept it. Fire Escape 05/24/89 18:33 VENOM H killer Well Im Afraid i have a different View Of God fireescape. 05/24/89 20:12 SIRLOIN irsa oinla solomillo No offense, FE, but I seriously have to disagree with you on that point. I believe that God is a forgiving God. If you screw up, he will still accept you. Jesus lived with the people that the Jewish elders condemned as people that God didn't love. The Jews believed in a wrathful God, who didn't punish you, but your next of kin, knowing that you would feel even worse about that. Even Jesus forgave the people who crucified him. If that's nor forgiving people who are not perfect in the eyes of god, then what is? 05/24/89 22:59 TALON S'Talon Yes, I remember reading that Jesus said "God forgive them, for they know not what they do", and these were the people who were crucifying him, the Jews and the Romans, he forgave these people of their sins so they wouldn't goto Hell. At least that's what the Bible you claim to follow says. And these Romans and Jews who were crucifying him certainly didn't accept him as Lord and Saviour as you say you have done. 05/25/89 07:47 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Perfection is boring... if there is a heaven, it must be painfully dull. 05/25/89 11:59 WITSL Fred Witsl Medic: masturbation is not a sin in the Roman Catholic Church. FE:We ARE by nature perfect, our bodies aren't. That is, if you believe that you have a soul and it is part of God or made in God's image or whatever. If you don't believe in having a soul than you can say that by your nature you are imperfect. 05/25/89 12:09 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Jesus forgave his enemies yes, to set an example for US. To teach us that we should forgive one another. But you can't ignore the rest of Jesus's teachings about salvation in favor of interpreting this example as the way God forgives everyone. Jesus made it crystal clear that he came to die for us so that we might have life. If we had life REGARDSLESS of What he has done, then tell me, WHAT WAS THE POINT OF HIM DYING FOR US? His death for us was a wasted effort, it was in VAIN if we all have right standing with God to start with. Romans 5:9 says that we are saved FROM GOD'S WRATH through Jesus. For if we were God's enemies and He still died for us to reconcile us to Himself through the death of His Son, how much more shall we be saved through His resurrection. God made the sacrifice BECAUSE we needed it to be reconciled. Isaiah 59:2 says, "Your imperfections have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear." Although we reflect characteristics of God and possess free will as being in His image dictates, we are fallen from grace through disobediance. We can not restore ourselves and according to the Bible we need restoration through Jesus in order to have eternal life. Good works don't cut it as Isaiah 64:6 tells us. Our imperfection taints our good deeds so that even those appear as filthy rags to a perfect God. It's a hopeless condition, that is why we NEED God's intervention, that is WHY Jesus HAD to die for us. It was to prevent us from ALL being condemned. Forgiveness and right standing with God are available to all through Jesus, but you MUST ENTER THROUGH HIM (John 14:6 and 10:1-11). Check the scriptures out, they say it quite plainly! 05/25/89 15:12 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Whoops, excuse me... I forgot... the current Vatican City position (unnh!) on masturbation is that it is a "grave moral disorder", not a sin. I also remember reading that they believe it to be a mental illness of a sort. In other words, nothing has changed in 2000 years, and anything that feels good is supposed to be forbidden... 05/25/89 22:06 SYSOP bitter & twisted wait a minute.....2000 years ago...most people didn't think masturbation was strange....its only in recent time that such ideas have been wide spread.....Sir Ion 05/26/89 08:05 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Well, perhaps you're right... most of Europe was simple peasant pagans who had no such hang-ups, and the Romans were nicely decadent at the time... Christianity was but a cult at the time... 05/26/89 13:07 CORDLESS COMPLEX I'd love to enter an argument on the Morals/religion/philosophy board but last time I tried I was Crucified! 05/26/89 21:20 ZAKK zak Perfection... Perfection is an impossibility for a human being to attain. There are many variables that just looking at it from a mathematical perspective allows one to realize just how impossible it is. As to whether or not Jesus died for us that is up to the individuals belief system ... I heard on WCBW the other day that the Bible is not the word of God. I would have to agree, it is the word of men. I think that a lot of people get hung up on perfection and it is such a waste of time ... the real goal that we should expect from oursevles is excellence! And that includes preaching too. 05/26/89 23:18 IRONMAN ironman ZAKK, WCBW said that the Bible is NOT the Word of God ?!?!?! I would have to suggest that you might have misheard. Really. Can you recall who was speaking. Really curious, as according to the latest Nielsen ratings, there are 4000 households in St. Louis that tune in to WCBW, and mine is one of them and I've never heard anyone suggest that. 05/30/89 08:14 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Only 4000? Good. I'm relieved... 05/30/89 17:08 FROM: WILD Drew Obviously all we have on this board is a bunch of monotheists who refuse to consider possibilities other than that of their God. What about an inteligent discussion on Psyonics, Crystal Power, thought/healing etc? 05/30/89 19:45 SYSOP bitter & twisted bs...there are open minds here.....i wouldn't mind hearing some ideas about crystals.....i understand them from a intuitive point of view.... i don't not see any "super" natural in the "naturalness" of crystals.... if you ask me it sounds like people are using them as a focus that they normaly could develop in them selves but once again western thought tells them that "magic" is outside of them.....a item to be used.... a thing...instead of them channeling their thoughts... i see no mystery in crystals....i do see fascination they are bueatyful in ways nothing else is....(im a part time rock hound) 05/30/89 20:40 SIRLOIN irsa oinla solomillo yes, jesus did die on the cross so that we could have a chance. He forgave his persecuters. I gotta get that book I was telling you about to you SOON, or you will run out of fun things to do. Besides, what good would God do if he wanted us to be perfect. none of us are perfect, I'm not perfect, S'talon isn't perfect, Your not perfect (ever picked up a penny off of a sidewalk and not try to track down the owner? That's stealing. God said "thou shalt not steal". Ever hit a bug on the grill of your car? God said "thou shalt not kill". Ever swat a fly with a fly swatter? Ever smash a spider willingly? Ever pull a tick out of you skin? That's his natural habitat. I believe that you drive. You are polluting Gods Earth. No, you are not perfect, I'm not perfect, but God's still there and he loves you. 05/30/89 22:53 ELDER The Elder Drew, Would your last initial happen to be M? If so, I know you. I am willing to consider the possibilities of monotheism or polytheism, but I AM a skeptic. What information do you have to offer? 05/31/89 00:22 GERBIL childhood trauma gee I guess I will go on the record as considering polytheism as impossible¬ cos like, if you have two power sources, the ultimate truth jumps abovå them to the ONE relationship the share... 05/31/89 02:59 WITSL Fred Witsl As far as the previous comment goes, bugs and animals are NOT on the same level as humans, they are just above rocks: they are just lumps of clay. THAT is the christian view of plants and animals and insects. As far as perfection, it can not be attained without divine intervention. We should strive far perfection, even though we may never reach it. 05/31/89 03:02 WITSL Fred Witsl Crystaline structures are the most interesting things I have ever seen. They enchant me, make me day-dream. Make random thoughts run thru my mind. Very soothing. 05/31/89 08:18 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- But certain species of flora and fauna are somewhat elevated; for instance, what about the Holy Prune? 05/31/89 08:19 MEDIC -=>MEDiC PROBABLE<=- Don't worry... there are some nice, flakey, totally irrational polytheists around here... they're involved in some religion called Wicca (funny, I always thought that was a kind of basket)... 05/31/89 14:10 FIREESC Fire Escape The CHRISTIAN view of plants and animals is that they are creations of God, loved by Him, and as such we should protect them and respect them as God's handiwork deserves! They do not possess free will or the ability to sin and are not created in God's image, possessing an eternal Spirit like Man does. But as lesser creations we should show them mercy and compassion as God shows to us. We should not attack, abuse or destroy the earth or the creatures in it. God blesses the animals and plants to be used as food WHEN NESCESSARY and if we receive them in the right spirit that is not wrong (see Romans 14:6-8 and 1st Timothy 4:3-6). But each should live according to the convictions they have (Romans 14:22-23). As for Masterbation, If there is any sin in it it would have to be the sin of 1) abusing the temple of God - the body (see 1st Cor 6:19-20 ) and/or 2) Adultery/fornication of the mind and heart (See Matthew 5:27-28) since fantasy always accompanies the above activity. Although the Bible doesn't specifically mention Masterbation itself, it does address bodily abuse and sexual fantasy. 05/31/89 14:28 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape From the reports I have heard in the science community, there seems to be no unusual properties to crystals to warrant this recent worship of them. They are like any other rock, devoid of energy. They have no power except the power you believe them to have. They are just instruments in activating the power of positive thinking or confession, which shamans and occultists have been doing for millenneas! How unoriginal. It is certainly most UN-appropriate for any Christian to use crystals or any other faith increasing device to bring about their own desire or will, totally contray to Jesus' command that we seek God's will before our own. The crystals could be avacado's for all the power inherent in them, as was pointed out, if anything happens it is becuase you sought to make it happen, not because of a shiny piece of glass. Geeesh!