05/08/89 15:23 FIREESC Fire Escape "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness in the place of light and exchange light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." - Isaiah 5:20 There are black and whites in this world, but the sin in our lives obscures our discernment and tints our perspectives with "shades of gray". Our perception doesn't change reality. "Whoever keeps the WHOLE law and yet stumbles at just one tiny point is guilty of having broken ALL of it." - James 2:10 All people, Christians and non-Christians alike, have fallen short of perfection, thus no one (not even Christians) will be justified by their good deeds. It doesn't matter if you fed every poor mouth and clothed every poor soul on the face of the earth, it still doesn't change the fact that good works will not get you into heaven. If Salvation is by trust alone, through God's free grace, then how good you are to a person has NO BEARING on your eternal destination. The Bible makes NO mention of "degrees of salvation". Instead, it speaks of "ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father of all..and of the GRACE that has been given as Christ apportioned it." (Ephesians 4:5-7). The ONLY incentive for doing good to anyone is the hope that in our love they will come to know our Lord Jesus Christ. Christians are saved to serve, they DON'T serve to be saved. That would not be Christianity then, but "religion". "When the kindness and love of God our savior appeared, he saved us, NOT because of righteous things we had done, BUT BECAUSE of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that having been justified by His GRACE, we might be heirs having the assurance of eternal life." -Titus 3:4-7 05/08/89 18:38 SYSOP Crawling Blackness anyone that calles me good....is obvously bind deaf and dumb to reality.......(and has a low thought to post ratio)......Sir Ion >:-> 05/09/89 13:33 MEDIC Medic Probable "And the Christians babbled like idiots, quoting their mythological fantasies from leather-clad tomes, making complete fools out of theirselves and wittling their precious time away." -Medic 69:4U 05/09/89 14:27 WITSL Fred Witsl There are absolutes in this world? FE, do me a favor, name 2. And I'll disprove both. Everything is in degrees. And evil is just a lesser degree of good, and vice-versa. 05/09/89 17:57 SYSOP Crawling Blackness if you can prove or disprove anything....there there are absolutes.....if you can't prove anything....then there are no absolutes....for you have to be GIVEN a absolute to do a proof....hoisted my your own axiomatic scheme Fred....Sir Ionn 05/09/89 23:52 VENOM H killer Yeah there is good and evil and not all christians go around putting there faith on other people... least not any of the ones i know.. faith is a faith, the only thing i hate is the mormons, ((they drive me nuts)) everytime they come to the door i wonder what i did wrong cuz the dress like cops.. I missed fire escape.. Not Even god is perfect, he says he is a very jealous god, so obviously he is not perfect and i dont think that he wants us to be perfect.. none of us will ever be perfect but he comes the closest to it... 05/10/89 00:48 GERBIL childhood trauma two absolutes: life. Motion. There are many absolutes, the problem, as always, is the definitions... 05/10/89 01:40 TALON S'Talon Well, I suppose that's why thumpers can go around causing Desecrations for a past time, as they beleive once your saved, you can get into heaven no matter what you do, and good deeds don't matter. I'm sorry, I can't buy that. It is by deeds and honour that one would get into heaven (Valhalla). Evil, cowardice, and serving Corruption would lead to Ridjeck Thome (Hell). Also, I don't beleive that the Creator created anything bad. It is Corruption, who sowed the banes into the Earth to sow Despair into the Creation, but we are placed here to fight that Corruption. Also, we have free choice to choose the Creator or Corruption. These two forces are called many different things in many different religons, and names and specific rituals really don't matter. It is what you do with your life as far as deeds and honour is concerned, not what you call your deity. Medic- I like mythology, don't compare thumping to mythology, you give mythology a bad name then. And I would follow your own Scripture, Fire Escape, that is thje the one in Isaiah that you quoted. 05/10/89 10:08 WITSL Fred Witsl Actually, to prove something, you need NO absolutes Ion. It is possible to prove something with NO given assumptions. Formal Logic. 05/10/89 18:07 SYSOP Crawling Blackness no....you alway have a given....even if its that logic is a system that can model the real world.... the world is not logical......humans have created logic to discribe the world....when you forget that....you tend to lose your percpetive of reality...Sir Ion 05/10/89 19:14 BIFF Bruce Hey S'Talon, I am interested in your religion. Can you tell me more about it, cuz if you get into your heaven from good works and so forth, then I could probably pass myself off as your God. Just teasing. But seriously though, could you tell me more about your beliefs? Burgundy-Orange Interested Biff 05/11/89 TO: ALL ANONYMOUS SMRY: Jesus Christ Jesus Christ IS the Light of the world. It is through Jesus Christ, who is The Son, that everyone is saved, liberated. Jesus Christ provided the answers for those who chose to listen. It is through His saving blood that we can have hope. In the 2000 years since Jesus' life, death, and proclaimed resurrection, many people have done many cruel things in His name.... however these actions by cruel, deluded humans, do not negate Jesus' proclaimation. St. James warned us: "You say you have faith, and I have works. I will show you my faith through my works. Faith without works is dead." (James 2:18) Some of the largest offenders in this matter are the committed Bible Thumpers who believe that they have the corner on the Truth and that they are the ones who can sit in judgement over everyone who disagrees with their position. This causes some of us to say: "To hell with Jesus! To hell with religion." The problem with that position is that we are, in effect, throwing "the baby out with the bathwater." Rather than focusing on our personal relationship with God and service to our neighbor we hurt ourselves by cutting ourself off from personal contact with our Higher Power who is God. 05/11/89 12:15 ASYSCAPE Fire Escape Venom: You said earlier that God was not perfect because he is a jealous God. Please tell me where the Bible says "Jealousy" is a sin. Let me explain something to you. If you accept the God of the Bible, them presumably you must also accept the Bible that reveals this God. The Bible teaches that Sin=imperfection. If God is IMPERFECT, then He sins. And we know from the Bible that God sins not. Have you ever read Deuteronomy 32:4? It says this: "He (refering to God) is the Rock, His works are perfect, and all His ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is He." What about Psalm 18:30? It says the same thing: "AS for God, His way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless." Even Jesus told us in Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Now what was this about God not expecting us to be perfect? Perfection is mandatory to having fellowship with a perfect God. This is why we need a Savior, so that through Jesus, we might be made (in God's eyes), "the righteousness of God IN CHRIST Jesus." (2nd Corinthians 5:21)® Fire Escape (We are Fools for Christ.. 1st Cor 4:10) 05/11/89 15:30 CORDLESS COMPLEX The burden of proof is not on those who disagree with the thumpers. We are not the ones making the unprovable arguments. 05/12/89 00:30 VENOM H killer Jealousy is sin, Jealousy is like Envey. and god has punished people for being Jealous of others.. and he has often thought of wiping out entire nations over jealousy.. He isnt perfect... Look, Even the wholiest of men are not perfect.. if so, how is god perfect.. if he made us in his image and thought.. 05/12/89 00:43 GERBIL childhood trauma ah, but fire escape, how come you did not give us a quote saying god was perfect? 05/12/89 02:14 TALON S'Talon Thou shalt NOT COVET....." Covet is being jealous. Also in your own Bible in James Chapter 4, it speaks of jealousy being a sin. And what is envy? All these things are sin as listed in your Scripture, but your Scripture also says "God is a jealous God". Hence, a contradiction in your own Scripture. Your deity is being portrayed as committing a sin by your own religon. However, jealousy in reality is really caused by immature reactions of humans, who display that emotion whenever their security is threatened. All of us have it, as thje human race has not left childhood yet. -S'Talon 05/12/89 08:38 MEDIC Medic Probable "Get your filthy hands of my desert." -Waters 67:83 I think Cordless summed it all up with his last comment. Well said. Bravo, etc... 05/12/89 Hmm Anonymous??? we can see someone doesnt want to get ragged on... but i agree... 05/12/89 it is the truth that sets us free, what ever that truth may be. Openess and hard work are required to find the truth. It can not be bought, or found lying around backwater conversations... 05/12/89 It gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling inside, just knowing that the religious must post anonymously on this board... B') 05/12/89 God was an alien and Jesus was his son. Immaculate conceptiom by Close encounters you know! 05/14/89 Ah, I see we have a Mormon on the subbie, huh ? - IRONMAN 05/14/89 A paegan. . .more likely. 05/14/89 there you go......again ironman...calling someone with a open mind a moron!!....oh mormon.....same thing...:) Sir Ion 05/15/89 hehe >:) I liked that Sir Ion. 05/15/89 The Osmonds were Mormons. 'Nuff said. 05/15/89 15:00 FIREESC Fire Escape First off: I did give you several verses concerning the perfection of God. Again they are: Deuteronomy 32:4, 2nd Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30 and Matthew 5:48 (which particularly says, "Be perfect as God is perfect". Please tell me how else to interpret this sentence Jesus said if not the way it reads. As for Jealousy, it is NOT the same word in Hebrew as "covet"!!! Covet inplies GREED, LUST and the desire to steal. Jealous is synonymous with POSSESSION or possessivness. The latter has to do with something that ALREADY BELONGS TO YOU!. Here is what the NIV commentary says about the "Jealousy" of God: "The Jealousy of the Lord usually concerns Israel and assumes the covenant relationship (analogous with Marriage) and the Lord's exclusive right to possess Israel and to claim it's love and allegiance. Actually, Jealousy is part of the vocabulary of Love. The "jealousy" of God (1) demands exclusive devotion to Himself, (2) delivers to judgement all who oppose Him and (3) vindicates His people. The Hebrew word translated as "jealousy" would be closely related to the word ZEAL or Fervor." So when the Bible uses the word "jealous" of the Lord, it is actually speaking of the ZEAL and FERVOR of the Lord and His ZEALOUS possession of His people in Christ. Where is the sin in this devotion? Study it before you condemn it! Fire Escape 05/15/89 20:25 SYSOP bitter & twisted same thing.....if i "love" another more so then god....im condemed.....same thing.....i.e. love me or else...Sir Ion 05/16/89 02:44 GERBIL childhood trauma be perfect as god is perfect does not logically demand any perfection. sorry.