Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Mon Mar 27 13:42:13 1989

But you can't prove it


Name: Headless Chicken #6
Date: Mon Mar 27 16:09:56 1989

Yes, FE, but you can't take it with you.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Tue Mar 28 13:53:10 1989

I like that one Gryph...nice.  Or better yet Neato keen...spif! (<---Its now 
OFFICIALLY set apart now, because of well, I'd have to explain it to you in 
person...)


Name: Ironman #120
Date: Tue Mar 28 20:59:07 1989

So, as I said a million posts back, I'm glad to see that you all finally see
now that the Shroud of Turin is not a hoax.  Also that, by the scientific
technology available today, it appears to not to have been the burial cloth of
Jesus.  Also that we STILL don't know HOW it was created.  Perhaps knowing HOW
it was created might change the dating of cloth.

    Regardless:  My faith, and the faith of every Christian I know of, does 
not depend in the SLIGHTEST on a piece of cloth.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Tue Mar 28 23:01:50 1989

I never said it did..  The cloth was 'discovered' years after the 'faith' had
begun, tho I'll bet there are people that DID convert because of the
Shroud....at least ONE!

Not that it matters, however, because by now I'm sure their faith has been 
strengthened...Know what I'm tempted to do? Go back to my 6th grade teacher 
and laugh in her face.  I had a magazine article on the shroud that I brought 
in one day and she looked at everyone and said, "The Shroud of Turin -IS- the 
imprint of Christ!!" God I'd love to do that...


Name: Jk #18
Date: Wed Mar 29 01:27:01 1989

Waitaminute here...are we still arguing semantics?  

Hoax: n. Something, as a joke or fraud, that is intended to decieve or trick 
others.

Fake: adj. Not genuine; false; fraudulent.  --n. 1. Something not genuine or 
authentic; a counterfeit.  2. An imposter; fraud. 

Counterfeit: --n. A fraudulent imitation or facsimile. 

Now, in my opinion, any of those fit...  The only thing -I- can think of that 
you're doing is saying the Shroud is noot the burial cloth of Jesus, but not 
an intentional counterfeit?  
    ^ underline "intentional"


Name: Utwo #109
Date: Wed Mar 29 19:38:32 1989

JK: The guy that found it gave it the duke of Turin.  Well they don't know if
the guy knew how it was formed. So this guy may have given the shroud thinking
it was a fraud but didn't know it. Get it? hehe
 

Name: Ironman #120
Date: Wed Mar 29 20:18:56 1989

Well we're getting there..  Once again, there is NO, repeat NO proof that the
Shroud of Turin:

1.  Is a hoax.
2.  Is a fake.
3.  Is counterfeit.

Absolutely NONE.  NADA.  ZIP.  ZILCH.  ZERO.  

It PROBABLY is not the burial cloth of Jesus.  PROBABLY.
We take this position because of the TECHNOLOGY available TODAY.

My own personal position on the Shroud of Turin ?
It would be interesting if it was, but I really don't care.  In the least.


Name: Jk #18
Date: Wed Mar 29 21:04:41 1989

Then basically, we ARE mincing words.  IM is defending the honor of some 
Medieval weaver, and nothing else.  Okay...whatever.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Thu Mar 30 03:00:27 1989

Jesus:  The dating method used on the shroud is accurate to 1 to 2 thousand
years.  There is ABSOLUTELY no way that it could be Christs' burial
cloth...NONE.  ZIP.  ZILCH.  ZERO.

That's another thing that sickens me about Christianity, their total ignorance 
of science and yet they feel free to 'crap' on it anyway...>Table< >Cough 
Cough Cough< ahem.


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Thu Mar 30 07:38:02 1989

WHat was that "Table" <cough><cough> bit, Doom?


Name: Fire Escape #65
Date: Thu Mar 30 14:22:15 1989

So what if is IS the burial cloth of Christ???  BIG DEAL people!  So what if
someday they do prove it is, what would it prove??  NOTHING.  Everyone already
knows that Jesus was crucified, died and was wrapped in a cloth, put in a tomb
and it was sealed as was the custom of that time, the cloth wouldn't be
telling us anything that wasn't already historically verifiable. Geeez. I
don't see what the big deal is about.  Even if it did turn out to be the
cloth, that doesn't say what happened to the BODY that was in it!  You are
still left with the question of the resurrection and wether or not you will
believe it ON IT'S OWN merit. The shroud won't help in that case anymore than
a history book.
                              "House on the ROCK, not on the Shroud.."
                                       Fire Escape

Name: Warrior Of The Son #116
Date: Mon Mar 27 18:23:46 1989

I must have been thinking of another song or something.  I am truly sorry 
for saying that song® Look guys I don't wanna make enemies with anyone.  I 
listen to about 50% secular music and 50% Christian music.  I'm not a 
religous fanatic at all.  I just happen to believe in God.  I mean you are 
telling me to accept you guys how you are, but you want accept me like I am 
thats the problem.  You guys heard me say I was a Christian and next thing I 
know I have people jumping all over me.  Please guys I don't wanna be your 
enemy.  Don't make me out as some pushy Christian.  I'm not at all.  
     About homosexuals we were made male or female.  We werent genetically 
made to be homosexuals.  Homosexuality comes from to many turn downs from the 
oppossite sex, or maybe you knew someone who was.  Or you they were just plain 
out confused® I know some people will disagree with what I just said.  BUT 
CAN WE TRY TO DISCUSS THIS RATIONALLY WITHOUT MAKING IT A WAR-ZONE!!!!!!!!


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Tue Mar 28 14:01:22 1989

Bulls#$%!  that's just like that dandy 'Table' convo we were just discussing. 
It can't be proven either way, but to think that THAT many people went to
being gay just because they had one too many rejections? Hell, I should be gay
then!
   About Iron Maiden, ok well last night I picked up a video of their World 
Slavery Tour (Real Cheap: $7.45 down from $24.99) Anyway, right before they 
played the song t'The Number of the Beast' Dickenson (Lead Singer) said this 
(I think he was talking to you Warrior of the Son-on-on-on): 
You wouldn't remember an album called "The Number of the Beast would you? 
>Massive Cheering¼ This song isn't actually on that album, its on the album 
"Piece of mind" and we got this crap from people about, what was it? 'Devil 
worship and all that kind of stuff.  And people were saying "Ooooo, Iron 
Maiden; Satanic¢ And the answer is, no, we're not, and we wish these people 
would all f*** off and die or crawl into some corner somewhere...
WoS: Get the point?


Name: Headless Chicken #6
Date: Tue Mar 28 14:34:01 1989

Pushy Christians:  You see Mr. Son, Christians have to be pushy, it's part of
the dogma.  After all, you wouldn't want all of us poor lost sheep burning in
hell, would you?  I think that that, above all else, is why I really, really
don't like "organized" religion.  I envy that you can place so much faith in
something like "God" or The Bible.  Truly.  Unfortunately, I just can't get
"the bigger picture" that all of you rave about.  Just my fate, I suppose.


Name: Warrior Of The Son #116
Date: Tue Mar 28 18:31:06 1989

WAIT A MINUTE!!!  Its not part of being a Christian to be pushy.  FOR THE LAST
TIME I AM NOT PUSHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Maybe the Christians you know are
pushy.  But PAL YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!!!!  Don't call me something that you can't
back up because you don't know me.  All you have done is read a couple of
Public Messages thats not enough to make a judgement!¡ As for crawling in a
corner.  Naaaa  Corners arent for me.  I like it in the open. 
Haaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!


Name: Ironman #120
Date: Tue Mar 28 21:25:07 1989

Gryphon, who ever told you God didn't like homosexuals ?  Quite the contrary, 
my friend.  God loves ALL .  God, as shown in the Bible, does not approve of 
homosexuality.  If you wish to not agree with this view, which is CLEARLY 
written in the Bible, fine.  That is your choice to make, with the free will 
that God gave you. But NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that we are to HATE 
homosexuals® If this is what you believe, or have been told, then you are 
mistaken® And Headless Chicken, no we DON"T want you to burn in hell.  That 
is, believe it or not, pretty nice of us, don't you think ?  How many of your 
friends show the same concern for you ?  We, who don't know you, will suffer 
verbal abuse, slander, and personal attacks in order to bring you a message 
which the person we recognize as the Son of God told us we should share to 
insure your place in heaven.  Dogmatic ?  No, not necessarily.  Dogged 
determination ?  Yes, I think so and perhaps you can , too.  That's for you 
to determine® Think about that, if you will.  I'm willing to risk getting shit 
on to get you a message which can change your eternity® Whether you accept 
the message or not will have NO bearing on my faith® I don't  necessarily 
need the company, so it would appear that I get no personal gain out of it, 
doesn't it ?  Hmmm....
   As far as Christian vs secular rock goes, I feel this way.  I listen 
exclusively to Christian metal and Christian music.  Period.  I used to listen 
to Black Sabbath/Ozzy  exclusively.  Period.  The difference:  you're more 
apt, I think , to find someone helping out at the New Life Evangelistic 
Center who listens to Christian music than Black metal.  That is, admittidley, 
a gross over-generalization. But it is, in my opinion, an accurate one.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Tue Mar 28 23:11:30 1989

Gryph: You think its good just reading it you should here the dude SAY it! I 
mean...well, you've got to see it.  It is truely neato keen...spif.
WoS: You're not pushy, eh? What do you call "I AM NOT PUSHYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 
AND THAT'S FINAL!!!!!! And did I just here you say that we shouldn't 
---"JUDGE"--- you on a few public posts? But aren't you the one who said that 
we can ---"JUDGE"--- a criminal for maybe ONE crime? No hope for being 
reformed? You want US to give YOU a chance, and yet you won't give that ONE 
guy a chance? You won't "Forgive your brother" or "turn the other cheek", dude?
ŠIronman: Well, -I- listen to a lot of non-Christian heavy metal (Exclusively.  
Used to be into Xian Top 40 stuff, but that stuff got to be boring) and I'm 
not a street skum sucker, and I -DO- volunteer for a lot of public work 
(Bringing food and clothing to Homeless or Poverty stricken families/areas), 
tho like you said it WAS a gross overstatement.


Name: Warrior Of The Son #116
Date: Wed Mar 29 16:41:00 1989

   When a criminal kills someone he looses all his rights I am not judging 
him!!  I dont hate him I love him, but the guy is sick if he did what he did.  
You cant forgive someone when they dont even ask for forgiveness pal you cant 
they have to want it¡ I dont hate homosexuals either.  I feel sorry for them.  
I mean I still love them but they desperately need help!!


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Thu Mar 30 03:02:04 1989

So what you're saying now is that ALL criminals don't want forgiveness...Have 
you actually ever TALKED to a killer, Mr. Warrior? How do you KNOW they don't 
want your forgiveness? Did Geraldo tell you that?


Name: Fire Escape #65
Date: Thu Mar 30 14:37:32 1989

LYRICS TO:  Puppet Strings... By Mad At The World:

"I'm working on your mind, I'm working on your brain. It's subtle but it's
 true, I'm controlling everything. Pulling the puppet strings. I tell you
 what to do, I tell you what to say. There is no black and white, I've turned
 it all to gray. Maybe you want to live but I alone decide, Cause if I get   
 the urge I'll tell you "suicide". Everyone's an actor and directing is such
 fun when I am in control of this soap opera rerun.

 On the stage that we were born, we play a losing game. But on the cross
 of Jesus Christ all puppet strings will break, all you need it faith.

 Last night I had a dream, a vision of today, a hundred billion strings 
 leading us astray and then I saw his face, that evil puppeteer, Satan is his
 name and Sin and death his game."
 
  Since this is the MUSIC sub, I though I should keep the conversation to 
music.  I don't think all music has to be Satanic or Christian. I listen to 
many groups that are not blatently one way or the other. I do think we should 
be discerning of what we put in our minds.  What you listen to is going to 
affect what you believe.  Music is a learning medium and it reinforces Ideas 
and beliefs like no other media can.  How did you learn the alphabet? I bet 
you learned it to that stupid tune.  Stories and beliefs have been put to 
music to teach the young since language was created. The instruments and 
messages have changed but the principle hasn't!
                                                     Fire Escape

Name: Jk #18
Date: Sun Mar 26 02:00:35 1989

Amazing...now there is definite proof of God.  Times change, I 'pose...
And BTW, I think the spirits created God...takes some of the pressure of 
omnipotence off of them.  Gryph can tell you about that...