Name: Fred Witsl #54 Date: Mon Mar 20 14:00:25 1989 One last Fred Witsl comment on gods... Every god ever in existence has said the same things that are in the Bible. There has never been a difference except in godliness.... They all said they were the one true god (or the only true gods), etc. So the question is: which god is the right when and HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW BEYOND A DOUBT???? Needless to say, we are human therefore just because we "think" there is a god and that god is the one true god does not mean there is one or is the one we think. There is NO PROOF of any god-creature ever existing. NONE. NADA. ZERO. ZIP. And again, what is the worse thing that can happen? Everlasting hell or ceasing to exist. Either way, chance are you won't notice or care when either "punishmentżé" comes about. Good luck. And for your one sake, may your god be the right one. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Mon Mar 20 14:47:41 1989 That sums up about all of my inhibitions about religion...I think that what Fred just said is a VERY valid statement, but I -know- that our Christians around here are gonna start saying shit about the bible and nothing can ever get any where...Life sux, what else is new? I just can't see how God would leave us all here with the only way we could ever 'believe' is if we were raised with it, and absolutely no proof of His existance...Surely, he could manage to at least let us know he's still around! Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Mon Mar 20 16:20:52 1989 Well I think the resurrection of Jesus Christ... was a pretty convincing piece of work. After all, NO ONE ever did find his body. So where is he? Possibly, just possibly he did rise from the dead and ascend to heaven like everyone that saw him said he did. If that's the case, wouldn't it seem pretty reasonable that the God Jesus spoke of was the real numero Uno? I think so. If it wasn't for the fact of his raising from the dead, I would figure he was just another religious crackpot. But seeing all the evidence for the ressurrection, leads me to consider the possibility that there just maybe is something to the biblical account. Quit looking at what people do and say, and look at what the Bible says. Not what people say about it, but what IT says about itself. Sure it might seem circular, but there are a lot of things outside the Bible that help support it. If anyone is interested in these things, I have a lot to show you. E-Mail me if you would like to discuss the evidence that supports the Bible. Fire Escape (Hey, I didn't START this here!) Name: Jk #18 Date: Mon Mar 20 18:51:25 1989 "No one ever found his body"...just how many 2000 year-old corpses do you think we HAVE found? There's this pesky thing known as decay...really screws up archaeology. Though I may regret this, what are "a lot of thingūgs outside the Bible that help support it"? Yes, I'm asking, mainly because the Shroud of Turin was proven a Medieval hoax, and because last year the Jesus Council decreed that the Lord's Prayer, among other things attributed to Jesus, were in fact NOT written by him, but rather a large paraphrase of some of his general ideas, complied about 100 years after his death. Name: Topper #79 Date: Mon Mar 20 21:18:58 1989 How many people today disapear and there bodies are never found! There is really no art in making a body disapear, and I doubt it ever did. It was probably hidden then left to decay. Name: Mr. Ed #1 Date: Tue Mar 21 01:01:37 1989 May I ask.. how many infamous executed "criminals" have guards posted at their tomb to prevent their followers from stealing their body? That is all Jesus' various followers would have had to do if they were out to defraud people into believing the Resurrection. But, Pilate posted that guard, and therefore, I think such a worldly explanation holds no water. Yes, I believe in the Resurrection and find no evidence against it! In fact, I find more in favor of it! Since this is Holy Week, I guess this is a Current Event. :) Name: Doomer #20 Date: Tue Mar 21 11:31:33 1989 FE: They didn't find Hitler's body either, so, if I say that I saw him after his death and I saw God raise him into heaven...HEY! Hitler is GOD!!! Hmmmmmm...Hope you have some other good arguments! Name: Jk #18 Date: Tue Mar 21 17:25:07 1989 DooM: Heh. I like that...Seig Heil, Seig Heil, Amen... Back to the Romans tho...assuming for the moment you can prove that the tomb of this Jesus guy WAS guarded in the first place, there still remain many ways to get the body out...bribery of the guards not being the least of them. Times change, people don't, and all those other lovely cliches, eh? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Tue Mar 21 22:19:27 1989 Plus What guarantees they even put him in there, eh? Nice point by Doom...plus, if the body was covered by the fake shroud, it could have been anyone. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Wed Mar 22 09:35:24 1989 The Christian faith is not based upon objects like the Shroud of Turin. NO Christian denomination based it's teachings upon the Shroud. It was NOT,by the way, proven to be a hoax. It was shown that it PROBABLY was not the burial shroud of Christ. What is interesting, by the way, is that NO ONE knows how the shroud was made or created. And as for the Council of Jesus: JK, you posted in an intelligent, pleasant manner so I must refrain from voicing my opinion of the "Council of Jesus". It is, to say the least, not very positive. Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Wed Mar 22 10:50:03 1989 Hoaxes Hmmm. Maybe the Bible will turn out to be a Hoax. :) Name: Fred Witsl #54 Date: Wed Mar 22 12:17:40 1989 The Bible wasx written by a bunch (more than 2 less than a million) people. They worked on it for a number of years (more than 2 less than a million). After they finished they proclaimed it to be "the Word of God". The original stories had been passed down by word of mouth for THOUSANDS of years. Psychologists proved that the "passing it down the grapevine" theory is fact. (the final story bares some resemblence to the original, but is not exact). Now, I have studied the Bible and I KNOW that it proves itself over and over again. Now, if you had a "bunch" of people working on a book for a "number" of years, don't you think it would be "perfect"? I think so. There is nothing spectacular with the Bible (as far as correctness goes), just the work of an excellent bunch of editors. Remember: the Bible was entirely written at the SAME time. The Old Testament and New Testament (as you see it now) were written together, not seperate. Name: Jk #18 Date: Wed Mar 22 15:32:07 1989 IM: Christianity wasn't founded on the Shroud of Turin, but many MANY people devoted themselves to it entirely, believing entirely... They became fanatics based on the "proof" the Shroud represented. And as far as I know, it HAS been proven a hoax...carbon dating places it's date of creation sometime in the Middle Ages...9th, 10th century? (Been a while since I resaerched this stuph). I know there are some Christian arguments upporting the shroud, such as micriscopic seed samples embedded within the cloth and whatnot, but in my opinion, they don't hold water. BTW, enlighten me, if you would, on the Jesus Council. All I have heard about them is their ruling and that it is a Council composed of Protestant and Catholic clergy. Call it curiosity... Name: Doomer #20 Date: Thu Mar 23 06:36:04 1989 The Shroud was 'officially' declared a hoax. Like a week after my thheology teacher made us watch a movie on it and was going on how it was Jesus' imprint...bahahahhahahaaa... Name: Ironman #120 Date: Thu Mar 23 09:09:44 1989 Sorry if I didn't make my point clear enough. NOBODY knows the who, what, when , where, or why behind the Shroud of Turin. You all are correct in saying that science has shown that , by the technology available today, the probablility exists that the Shroud of Turnin is not the burial shroud of Jesus. It was not declared to be a hoax. To do that would require knowing who created it, how it was created, and MOST importantly WHY it was created. Fred, I'd have to disagree with your views on the Bible. The Old and New Testaments were not written at the same time by the same men. I'll post more on this later® (I know you all just can't wait). As to the Jesus Council, basically what we have is this: " Okay, guys, hold the noise down, we're going to vote now so we can get the heck out of here and hit the casinos. Okay, let's take a vote on something. Uh, okay let's vote on this: 'Was Jesus ever registered at the Ft. Lauderdale Hilton ?' Okay, it's 140 FOR, 138 AGAINST. Okay, it passes. We have just determined that Jesus took an Easter Break vacation at Ft. Lauderdale and stayed at the Hilton ." Slight over-exaggeration. Notice I said SLIGHT. Name: Jk #18 Date: Thu Mar 23 15:09:06 1989 IM: Nope. We DO know the "when" to the Shroud of Turin...definitely Middle Ages. Thus, unless this Jesus guy was buried about 1000 years after he died, that makes this a FAKE, as in NOT the genuine article. From your description of the Jesus Council, I get this feeling that you're none too supportive of them. Why? Are YOU opposed to organized religion, or to the hierarchy but not the church community, or are you just pissed at these guys because they interpreted the Bible differently than you do? I am more or less a person who likes to deal with facts, or at least as close as possible. I know that you don't like the members of the Jesus Council, but the only conclusion I can draw from that is that your description of them will be necessarily prejudiced...see what I mean? It's your opinion they're bozos, but I'm not sure if that's the truth or what you like to believe. Hey, does this mean there's gonna be a "schism"? Hmmmm.... Name: Fred Witsl #54 Date: Fri Mar 24 08:06:41 1989 Yes the Old Testament was written earlier by a different group, but either way, the ties between the Old and New and the "exactness" could still be the work of a good group of editors. Especially since they had the Old Testament sitting right in front of them. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Fri Mar 24 10:33:22 1989 Right, JK, that we do have a scientific probablility that the Shroud of Turin was created during the Middle Ages. But does this mean it is a FAKE ? No. That may SOUND like a contradictory statement, but it isn't. For it to be a FAKE implies that it was created represent itself as the burial shroud of Christ. I don't know this to be the case. No one does. Because no one knows why it was created or , perhaps more importantly , WH and HOW it was created. As to the Jesus Council, I don't hate them at all. I have a problem with these folks who, in all honesty, give the impression that they could vote themselves into heaven if they could just get enough votes. Sort of theocracy by democracy. What this does, in my opinionis to "water down" those issuethe Bible which are , by the Council's viewpoint, difficult to follow. You can't "vote" your way into heaven. I take what the council says with a grain of salt. I don't dismiss them, or anyone, out of hd without hearing what they have to say. Name: Utwo #109 Date: Fri Mar 24 11:37:35 1989 I think they actually dated back to about the 14th or 13th centuries. It is a hoax in the sense it isn't Jesus Christ burial cloth but it wasn't intended to be one. I think the current most widely accepted belief is it was a Jew who would not convert to Christianity. (the time is around the Inquisition) Well this poor guy was then crucixfied in the same manner as Jesus because if the Jews thought it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for them. The one thing that is a mystery about the Shroud is how the imprint of the body got onto the cloth. The coins that were placed on the guys eyes even left imprint. Name: Metalhead #7 Date: Fri Mar 24 12:49:07 1989 I believe that in the last analysis and dating of the cloth, the "mystery" of how the imprint was created was solved. I believe that small amounts of some sort of pigment were found on the shroud, although /i can't recall exactly what it was. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Mar 24 13:17:11 1989 or who knows, intense radiation.. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Sat Mar 25 01:47:59 1989 Thanx, Utwo. That's exactly what I was going to say! IM: We -can- safely assume, however, that it is NOT a holy relic, right? Right. That's all that matters to me. You don't NEED to know WHO or WHY in thismatter, because you know that A) Jesus died in the 1st century or so and B) that the Shroud was dated to about the 14 or 15th century and that Carbon dating is accurate to 1000 or 2000 years meaning that it could not in any way have been an imprint of Jesus' carcass..unless you'd care to deny that he Ascended into Heaven body and soul?