Name: Birdman #223 Date: Fri Aug 25 00:32:36 1989 if an all loving God would WILL somebody to be sick, unhappy and die an early death like many sick people do...then I can love and take care of myself and my family without his help...surely God is NOT going to punish those who doubt his existence.....because if he truly sees inside a man/woman's soul, then he knows of what their heart is made of....and will forgive their straying from the fold....we obviouslt differ on what our opinions of love are...I try to show mine to others everyday...and in that respect feel I show a better example than that which God does to the people of the world in its current condition! I'm sorry you are handicapped...I have several friends who also are...and you know what? Not one of them think's it was "God's will..." they accept the FACT that for one MEDICAL reason or another....they are handicapped.... Name: Utwo #109 Date: Fri Aug 25 01:56:59 1989 One thing that can't be answered is how and all-forgiving God would send someone to Hell? What if the guy changes his mind after a thousnad years? Wasn't there some parable where Jesus said (I remember now the on about the guy who hires the workers at diferent times.) that it doesn't matter between a guy who just began to repent for his sins and a guy that had been faithful his whole life. If any responds to this, please don't bother if your not going to deal with the first sentence of my post. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Aug 25 07:03:33 1989 You miss the point (not Utwo, someone back there..): You say "God knows what's best for you." Prove it. Why? If I write a book and it becomes a bestseller and lasts for a milenia or so, does that make me spif and all-knowing? "Lesse..I think they should get..70 years...and if they don't obey me I'll let them go rot in hell. BLoody good, don't you think?" Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Fri Aug 25 10:55:10 1989 Utwo and Gryphon.... Why would an all forgiving God send anyone to Hell? He WOULDN'T! IF (there's always an if you know) IF He was JUST all-forgiving. BUT God isn't JUST "all-forgiving", He is also "JUST". Just means that he is OBLIGATED to punish sin and rebellion wether he enjoys it or desires to or not. JUSTICE requires that he punish disobediance. But since God is capable of totally forgiving one, He had to devise a payment plan to SATISFY His justice so that He would be FREE TO FORGIVE one who hadn't made the "payment" himself. This is where a "savior" comes in. God satisfies his justice by giving our deserved punishment to a scapegoat - His willing Son Jesus - so that the willing Human can receive pardon and forgivness. We didn't deserve it, but God's FORGIVENESS made it possible for us to AVOID His JUSTICE. Get it? AS for Sickness and disease, They are all part of living in a world full of sin. The wages of sin is death and sickness and disease. And sometimes innocent people end up experienceing the consequences of other people's sin because we all live in the same world. What you lack in this life through no fault of your own, will be made up to you in the next if you trust in Jesus. God shows no favoritism. All people will suffer the affects of sin and death, but God can be greater than those things if you will allow Him to be. Fire Escape Name: The Doc #139 Date: Fri Aug 25 11:39:25 1989 When I went to Catholic schools, we were told there is a place called Purgatory, where some people go when they die, because they can be redeemed. I mean, Hell is life imprisonment without parole, and purgatory is life imprisonment with parole. Now I'm told by others that there is no place called purgatory, that you either go to heaven or hell. Like I said before, too many contradictions... Back when I was in high school, I wrote down my philosophy. I stashed that away somewhere. I'll have to dig it up later, but basically it said that each person IS their own god, they control their own lives, they set their own destiny. There is no overseeing, all powerful god. Each person creates his own reality and chooses their own personal beliefs, which differ from person to person. BTW, I wrote this down before I studied other philosophies, so I wasn't aware of similar statements such as mine. Fire Escape, Heavnsent, Ironman, Brightside, and whoever else: Your god is a cruel, harsh, and power hungry god. That does not fit in with my beliefs. However, if your beliefs make you feel good, fine. To each his own. You have chosen your beliefs. I have chosen to find a different reality. Such is life. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Fri Aug 25 12:51:35 1989 In a way, I agree with you Doc: God doesn't do things the way I would. For instance, Utmo mentioned the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard ( which can be found in Matthew 20:1-16 for those following along in their Bibles at home ). If I was in charge of the vineyard, I'd pay those who had worked ALL day more than those who were hired at the last hour. That's because I'm human. But here we have Jesus saying that No, when it comes to paying His workers, those who show up at the last minute will receive the same wages as those who have been busting their hump all day long. Hey, that's not fair !! Hmmm.....wait a sec....that's right, that isn't FAIR ! That's what is called GENEROUS ! Name: Krazy Kitty #226 Date: Fri Aug 25 13:32:32 1989 I don't think it says anywhere in the Bible where God is "fair". He plays by his rules. I agree with Fire escape on death and illnesses. Sometimes God allows these things to happen to test our faith. Name: Jk #18 Date: Fri Aug 25 14:24:47 1989 So allowing a Moslem child, or a Jew, or a Hindu to be born without arms is a "test of their faith"? Brilliant logic on the part of whatshisface there... Name: Flyer #225 Date: Fri Aug 25 15:32:35 1989 Lesse here, I'm gonna try something a bit different. May cause everyone to get on my case, but oh well. If a child is born without arms, etc., how do people like Jk suggest that they were born that way? (This is considering that the parents were not drunk, on drugs, or something). If you can understand what I'm saying, because I can't eloquently explain anything over a post, but there must be a reason other than medical that a child was born without arms, don't you think? Or, maybe God did it, for whatever reason... Note: Only some people will probably understand this, cuz I'm not thinking straight, so go figure... Name: The Doc #139 Date: Fri Aug 25 16:14:37 1989 Genetic defects cause birth defects, not your god. If that were the case, then what you are saying is that god is passing judgement on a person even before this person was born and does anything. He's punishing him/her for no reason at all. That is cruel! Name: Heavnsent #42 Date: Fri Aug 25 17:56:05 1989 Satan is the cause of birth defects. This is his world(Earth). And it's not punishing...and....People are not born with defects because they or their parents have sinned. That's ridiculous. The ONLY person that has suffered sinful consequences of everyone is JESUS. Jesus did NOTHING bad...yet..He died for those who did...so they could have a chance at life again and turn to the Lord. You don't think that's Loving?!!?! Yes, God knows before a person is born whether or not he/she will be handicapped. EVEN BEFORE THE CHILD HAS ANY REASON TO BE PUNISHED! I think it's pretty loving for God to only make our life on Earth short(for those that hurt....are depressed, etc..) really it's short for everybody. What I mean is.....HOW WONDERUL IT IS THAT WITH ALL THE PAIN WE HAVE HERE...PHYSICAL OR EMOTIONAL...THERE IS A PLACE WHERE ONE DAY...IF WE MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION....WE WILL ESCAPE IT ALL!!!!! PARADISE. ~~Heavensent~~ Name: Jk #18 Date: Fri Aug 25 22:50:53 1989 No, a mistake by the mitotic spindle, or an error in DNA replication can be causes of mutation. Human beings aren't perfect, and neither are their cells. Simple as that. I find it hard to believe this Satan guy runs around performing prenatal genetic engineering on a few hundred thousand fetuses, and then goes back to the workshop and whips up a few trillion AIDS viruses. Get real... Name: Black Demon #216 Date: Fri Aug 25 23:53:03 1989 oh but heavensent and the others are perfect. Name: Utwo #109 Date: Sat Aug 26 01:12:58 1989 Gees, it's almost like they make this up so they have a reason to live and then they get blinded by it. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Sat Aug 26 01:56:46 1989 Satan is far too busy writing Rock Lyrics to have time to do genetic re-structuring! Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sat Aug 26 08:17:35 1989 You got that right, Snappy. This evil heavy metal is attacking MY SOUL!!! Ahem. So basically GOd looks at Satan, sees him deforming a few kids and spreading a few viruses, and in his all-loving nature decides "Oh, I'll let him do that.." Name: Darkstarr #179 Date: Sat Aug 26 09:17:26 1989 I like that, this is satans world. If that one is true,then finiially I know why I dont want to be around any longer. This world is ugly, the trees stiink, the sky sucks, the biirds shiit on us. So with respect, to above post, this world sucks. Now, I for one dont believe this is satans world. It may have evil in it, but I thiink its gods world. Because, Ii personally beliieve its beautiful. But satiin is trying his best to louse thiings up. Also, Ive fiigured out why god is all forgiving, if he wasnt, there would be a vacant sign in heavin, cause noone, and ié mean noone, would be there but him. Name: The Radical #163 Date: Sat Aug 26 18:56:53 1989 God as depicted in the Bible is a jerk. Name: Utwo #109 Date: Sun Aug 27 02:01:38 1989 Right On! Oh well, that makes since as does all x-ian stories that this is Stan's world. I guess that's why God made it. Just for Satan, eh? That's about the worst BS I've heard so far. Name: Jk #18 Date: Sun Aug 27 16:25:14 1989 Satan's list of names keeps growing: Baalzebul, Moloch, Mephistopheles, Lucifer, Asmodeus...and now, "Satin" and "Stan". And life goes on... Name: Utwo #109 Date: Sun Aug 27 17:17:38 1989 Wow I did post Stan but didn't post the Satan almost did tho. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun Aug 27 17:59:25 1989 I'm a satin worshipper. Please! More sheets! Name: Doomer #20 Date: Sun Aug 27 19:51:53 1989 THAT was funny. At any rate, this is what I mean. I really don't think Heavnsent meant to say that this was "Satan's world" (I could be wrong of course) but ians get particularly over zealous and start saying things to back up their own stories (Flyer's been doing it for days now, altho he denies it) it happens. Name: Nikademus #203 Date: Mon Aug 28 01:11:15 1989 Heavensent, the universe was created in 7 days, someday you will have to tell us how you did it. I thought it was our world, given by God to us, not Satan's world to torture. If it is indeed Satan's world, then this must be hell. Satan trys to decive us, and barter our souls for false promises. He doesn't go around and mess with DNA, or whip up a batch of AIDS viruses. That is nature, the negtaive part of nature. Which is not an entity, but in fact a series of events that happen in life. Aids came from a bunch of viruses that mutated in their DNA, that until 20 or so years ago didn't exist, and effect the immune system. Perhaps, a case of evolution, perhaps not. But as I stated, there is bad on this world in order to have good. It is like a rollercoaster ride, up one time and down another. We all get different cards delt to use in life and have to play them. Name: Krazy Kitty #226 Date: Mon Aug 28 02:07:42 1989 Cards, I like your reference of getting different cards delt to use in life. God won't give us more than we can handle, but if we choose poorly, we tend to bring bad things upon ourselves. There are kids born with handicaps that are much better socially adjusted than kids with no physical problems at all. God gives us the right to choose if we do something with our lives, or become "garbage".