Name: Jk #18 Date: Fri Aug 11 01:38:20 1989 Is it getting boring because of the points I've made? But to answer your question, I have a HUGE problem with religion, and Christianity in particular. Everybody keeps saying, "But they weren't the only ones", "It was only certain groups" "What have the non-Christians done?" My question is what does that matter? The fact remains people DIED as a DIRECT RESULT of the interference of Christian missionaries. Should we just ignore that because "They weren't the only ones"? But hey, if you get tired of me bashing the missionaries for their royal f***up, we can always move on to something else. I just hope you're not expecting it to be nice and "brotherly". I have a lot of problems with the whole God scene, and rarely can I bring the subject up without getting mighty pissed off. Name: Ozz #141 Date: Fri Aug 11 02:47:16 1989 One thing that Ironman(and everyone else) is forgetting. Is that in the days that you guys are talking about there was practically no "secular" people anyway. If you weren't christian, you weren't anybody. So, of course, there were no secular "missionaries" There is a hell of a lot of difference between the (hopefully) missionaries today, educationwise, and the ones of yesterday. I don't believe for a second that the missionaries were doing for the love of god, they did it because that is what they were supposed to do. These missionaries set up their own little kingdoms and called them "missions" or whatever... They were just as secular as anyone... To them, the church was a JOB! How anyone can take CHristianity seriously knowing just a little of the church's history, and how secular the church really was, is beyond me.. And don't give me that crap, well it was the catholics, I'm a blah, blah, blah. It's all the same. Christianity is just another power game. If you think JK is bitter, you should be happy to know that I almost always stay off this board. I a make him look like a satisfied customer, I guarantee. Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Fri Aug 11 06:18:27 1989 The only appropriate comment: Axl: show me documentation . You are totally inadequate in matters of philosophy and theology. You always back down when a discussion hits the meat and bones. Other people are narrow-minded and biased? I've seen that attitude come from both sides of the camp. Jk: I used to have a major problem with Christianity too. Then I decided to try and actually examine it instead of being preoccupied with bashing its proponents. Let me guess, you grew up in a parochial school and ran into conflicts with "their morality" and "your morality". I can't see the logic that Ozz and yourself propose as being valid. It is based upon presuppositions (Christianity is bad, thus bad things are caused by Christians, thus all Christian people are bad), and some heavy biases. I would be willing to discuss God and the "God scene" with you, even being open to criticism, but not in an insulting and deragatory manner. That is just plain silly. Name: Ozz #141 Date: Fri Aug 11 06:46:12 1989 Bahahah fooled you! I grew up in an environment where religeon of any kind jsut wasn't brought up... I wasn't brought up Christian, nor atheist. I am, however, agnostic... My mother is a Baptist of sorts, and my father never talks about it. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Aug 11 06:58:31 1989 I wasn't brought up with it and I don't hate Christianity (just the idea of religion as a whole...I don't care, it could be Egyptian and I wouldn't like it.) You like Christianity. Thus, Nu, you're biased towards it as much as you say we're biased "against it." so what's your point? Jk's brought up numerous logical points, and I'll restate the one: Christain Missionaries were DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for what has happened to Ethiopia. Really really really a biased comment there..truth hurt? Name: Axl Rose #93 Date: Fri Aug 11 12:52:20 1989 Nu.. I don't have to pove that a god doesn't exist. It's the truth..... Christianity was created thusly: It all started out with the ancient tribal religions with a "Sun god", a "moon god", etc., etc. Then over the years the religion evolved to being just one god. Then over the years, someone decided to write down all of the stories about how this god created everything, and so on. Which has since evolved into the Old Testament. Well, the New Testicle was formed when this hippie dude with long hair called Jesus started walking around without any shoes on claiming that he was the son of god. Well, soon afterward he recruited these 12 retard-moukas to follow him and to swear to people that this dude actually turned water into wine and that other crap. Well, finally the govt. got so sick of this geek blasphemizing their god that they had him exterminated. Well, after he was put to sleep, these 12 retards (with 48 IQ) broke into the tomb and .... Name: The Radical #163 Date: Fri Aug 11 13:21:01 1989 I Don't like Xianity because Xians are always butting into other peoples business, trying to run their lives, tell them what's right and wrong. Judeo-Christian-Moslem religions are the only ones that I know of that have this tradition of butting into other peoples business. Besides, God is an asshole, read the Old Testament, he behaved like a spoiled child. ŠAlso, the bible is just a compilation of folk tales by many writers....Job, for instance, was a sumerien folk tale before the Hebrews though it sounded real cool and put it in their book. Isaiah was compiled from writings by 3 different people, how accurate can that be? There are two versions of Genesis, with different chronologies. etc. etc. etc. Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Fri Aug 11 15:25:38 1989 Ha! Yeah, I'm biased. I have already conceded the points Jk made. Ozz, I wasn't referring to you--I was referring to Jk. Now, I want to address the points Axl Rose and The Radical have brought up. Axl, Show me documentation . I am WELL aware of the Ancient Traditions and Faiths. I am also aware of the actuality of the Old and New Testament being reliable documents. You say the non-existance of God is a fact? Highly laudible and bold, also fully innacurate. Please, refrain from posting and discussing theology if you are not prepared for it. The Radical, I have read the Old Testament. I struggle with the behavior of God in some passages, but then I come to terms with the reasons for His actions. Look at the way Israel was repeatedly chastened for their apostacy. He wasn't behaving like a spoiled child, but a dissapointed (although caring, strict) father. Regarding Job, the date and authorship of Job is highly suspect, but I'd like to hear the references you use for your conclusions of its having been a Sumerian myth that the Hebrews adopted. Regarding Isaiah, I request the same references. I am aware of the criticisms stating that chs. 1-35 are one author, and the other division exists at 36-39 and 40-66. The verbal parallels, evident in both Hebrew and the Greek Septaugint, are striking enough to convince me of the unity of Isaiah. Compare the following verses: 1:2--66:20 1:5-6--53:44 5:27--40:34 6:1--52:13;57:15 6:11-12--62:4 Also note the unique usage of at least 25 Hebrew words found in no other prophetic writing, in both major divisions of Isaiah (1-39 and 40-66). The structure also argues the case for unity. Note that the book of Isaiah is a book of literature involving prose and poetry compiled and authored by Isaiah over the entire period of his ministry. People's style changes over time. Look at the changes in the writings of Asimov or Herbert, would you claim that Robots of Dawn and Foundation were written by different men. Isaiah A and Isaiah B are both distinguished by Isaiah's unique uses, poetry, symbolism, and structure. Name: Jk #18 Date: Fri Aug 11 15:45:57 1989 You may be surprised to learn I HAVE read the Bible and have had 5 years of Christian education. I was subjected to all of it, I learned all about it, and I decided it was a bunch of crap. This is not some rebellion thing, if that's what you choose to believe. It is simple outrage at most things Christianity and indeed, organized religion, stand for. I think it's really the hypocrisy the pisses me off more than anything...that and the blind faith in whatever is dictated with no examination of it whatsoever. Mindlessness annoys me. Name: Midnight Rambler #103 Date: Fri Aug 11 17:10:30 1989 I would take this time to restate the belives of deism--one of the only religions that can make sense to a thinking person. Deisits belive that G-d is the laws which govern the Universe. Another group of Deists belive that G-d is the guy who started the whole Universe. Primal Force is what some guy called it. Think about it... Scientist say that the big bang was started with a huge culster of gasses and debris floating around. Ask them where the gas came from and there is no explanation. That's why I belive that whatever started up this universe is G-d. The rules of nature are too defined and un-changing for it to be any onther way® When I see a miricle I'll change my mind. Name: Daigoro #41 Date: Sat Aug 12 01:45:56 1989 Why are you bashing all religion because of the past? First of all, today MOST religion is private and subtle. The only exceptions are the evangelists and fundamental christians (who ought to learn to stop SAVING evryone's souls) and the moslems. These hardly represent the mainstream of religion. But lets just stick to Christianity, most Christians would never attempt to justify the past, nor would they claim any association. Sure crimes have been committed in the name of religion. But the rest of the world isn't exempt. Is the U.S. Govt. of today to be condemned because it condoned slavery 100 years ago? Is democracy bad because in the 1950s we repressed everyone who showed even the slightest socialist tendencies. Is the Busch administration a bunch of criminals because the Japanese Americans were interred in prison camps in the 1940s? Or maybe the whole U.S. population of today is to be condemned because WE are everyday screwing the entire continent of South America? Let's get real and start using some legitamate arguements. Yes, it's legitamate to say that the missionaries were wrong, yes it's legitamate to say that most Christianity was run by greedy administrators up until recently. Yes it's legitamate to say that Ethiopia is screwed up BECAUSE of the actions of the missionaries. But it's not legitimate to ask people of today to attone for crimes of the past, no more than a criminals son is responcible to serve his fathers term in prison if his dad dies too early. Name: Darkstarr #179 Date: Sat Aug 12 06:40:39 1989 I have a problem with christian actions. My boss up untill recently was a catholic, he operates 2 liqour stores and 1 bar and grill. Now as a catholic, its okk to drink alchol, just not get drunk. So with this conception, its ok to sell it. Like wow, noone ever gets drunk. Now, he has changed over to Morman. Well mormans dont believe in drinking at all. period. He says that sence he already owned the stores and bar, that its ok to still serve. This makes me sick, so sick, I gave my notice, I got tired of it all. I cant stand alcholics, but i can stand christians, that dont practice what they preach even less. This man has meetings 2 to 3 times a week, preaches the word of god, and also makes acholics out of people every day. Now your going to say, he is a bussiness man, and if people want to but it, they will go some where else, so it doesnt matter that they come to his bussiness or not. But to me, I would think that in order to be a real christian, I know I wouldnt even want to be a supplier, I mean heck, if its ok to supply alcholics there fix, then pushers shouldnt be put down for their way of making a living. I just cant condone this crap anymore, ive seen to many people ruining their lives on booze to condone it. And most of all, I cant stand a hipocrit. Name: Ozz #141 Date: Sat Aug 12 07:28:22 1989 My opinion of humanity isn't so high, eh? So yes, I think that you can blame modern Americans for some of those problems you mentioned.... Me included cuz all I do is bithc, but I don't actually do anything... Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sat Aug 12 11:25:22 1989 As everyone knows, my opinion of humanity is less than flattering, and I still retain that we're a barbaric race playing at civility and failing miserably. Thus, yes, it is our fault for what is going on in South America as much as it's our fault for our government supporting the crimes in South Africa. I include myself because although I complain alot, I haven't written a single letter, probably because I don't see it making much difference; noer have I made speeches (I HATE giving speeches0 or rallied support, etc. Where was I? I forget what i was going to say on the religion topic..oh yeah. Someone, I think Nu (correct me if I'm wrong) said that nowadays religion is private and subtle? Yes..I suppose the ban on pornography and the protesters of Last Temptation of Christ and the protesters at the Ozzy Osbourne concert and the Moral Majority are really private and subtle. Name: The Radical #163 Date: Sat Aug 12 16:34:16 1989 These xians wouldn't know subtle if it hit them in the face (t.m. by OZZ) Name: Ironman #120 Date: Sat Aug 12 20:15:02 1989 One thing that really gets me pissed off to the max is that one missonary, you know, that one old broad, uh......Mother Terresa. Boy, imagine her going into Calcutta and saving those non-whites from disease and starvation ˇ I mean, who does she think she is: God ? And sure, she saves little kids from the deadly streets in Calcutta, but for what ? Why can't this nosey bi**h realize that the best thing to do would be to let those non-whites just starve to death . That way they aren't a drain on the agricultural resources of the world. I mean, g*d da*n it, if she forces us to send food supplies to these non-whites, why, the price of Pringles or Fritos could go up by 3 or 4 per cent !!!! Hey, g*d da*n it, just how the h*ll am I supposed to afford dip for my snacks if she goes around saving these worthless non-whites !!!! She really pisses me off. I mean, REALLY, they aren't even WHITE for God's sake !! Yeah, guys, I really see what you mean now about interfering missionaries. Once I realized how their meddling could personally affect me, I changed my mine® Let 'em starve ! I don't like Fritos without bean dip !