Name: The Radical #163 Date: Tue Aug 08 11:30:12 1989 Sorry, but Nu's post that missionaries make mistakes too kinda pissed me off. After all, missionaries aren't responsible for just a few meaningless mistakes, they are responsible for the deaths of millions. Ignorance is no excuse, they should have educated their missionaries instead of sending them to half-assed dogmatic bible schools which don't teach fact whenever it disagrees with what they want to believe. Name: Jk #18 Date: Tue Aug 08 17:44:53 1989 Exactly...if I were to go into a nuclear reactor and play with the controls and accidentaly blow the place up, eradicating a city, should I be excused because I'm "only human" and simply made a mistake? They have to take responsibility for what they have done, which is inflict not just death, but a slow, lingering death on millions. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Tue Aug 08 18:22:29 1989 So, he says that we shouldn't judge modern Xians because of their past mistakes, when their own Bible provides an example of it....remember how this Original Sin business came about? Funny, seems like your god's judging all of us by past sins...and since he's just an omniscient ole chap, he's prejudged us... Trying to deny responsibilty by defending it with the phrase "Everybody makes mistakes" is pitiful...see Jk's example above, I probably woulda uesd something like it myself...but since I agree wholeheartedly with each one of his posts, I'll refrain from adding more.. Tempest: Where did you disappear to, anyway? Hadn't seen you on the boards for awhile...maybe I was just missing your posts or somethin and you WERE on.. Btw, all, no, his .^*^. does not infringe on my copyright of .-=-. ...;) Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Wed Aug 09 23:07:17 1989 Thank you Gryph, I appreciate the copyright benefit. I am NOT placing missionaries above reproach, neither those of the past or present. I do NOT agree with the tactics or motivation of RCC missionaries in the past, and most of the other franchises didn't do much better. I just state that one cannot judge God or His commission upon the basis of the actions of a social institution. Radical, sorry if my post offended you. Not like I actually meant to or anything. And Axl, get a life, you're a geek. Try to drink less caffine, it might help your temper and sexual orientation . He is here people, I am just joshing him. I'm not justifying or excusing them, just saying that they are not perfect and people should not expect them to be. That is inconsistent.... Name: Daigoro #41 Date: Thu Aug 10 03:22:48 1989 Jk: While I'm not defending the missionaries (I'm really not on either side...yet), there is a definite difference between what they did and your example. Everyone knows roughly the power and the danger of a nuclear reactor. The missionaries (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) didn't know that there was any danger in there actions. I mean I may go to a nuclear plant not knowing that putting a slab of metal where the damping rods are s'posed to go will cause trouble, but I do know that the nuclear reactor is dangerous and that I could kill a couple thousand people if I screw up so I shouldn't mess with it. It's my understanding that the missionaries didn't even concieve that there could be a harm in what they were doing. Here's an example of what I'm saying in other terms: Take the industrial revolution. NO ONE had any idea that all the shit they were pouring into the air would cause a hole in the ozone layer a hundred years down the road, we can't exactly put all the blame on them for the problems of today. Say, for another example, you go into the paint business. You develop a new kind of paint that passes all the tests you can think of administering, hell, the labaratory rats even live longer. Well, a couple hundred years later, the descendents of people exposed to your product start turning up with green skin and scales, is that your fault? I'm not trying to say that the missionaries are innocent, I'm merely trying to clarify the issue. If you happen to know that the missionaries DID in fact have some idea of the consequences, or even the knowledge that their preaching COULD have consequences, well, then that's a different issue. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Thu Aug 10 06:40:32 1989 our point is that they SHOULD have had some idea of the consequences before going out and playing god with the death rate of these people. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Thu Aug 10 08:50:57 1989 So what you all are saying is basically: Hey, let them natives die! Hmmm. First off, why weren't the "educated" folks from the secular camp there to administer the medicines which saved these peoples lives ? Oh, you say, they COULD have been but chose not to "interfere" ? Oh, I see. But wait: being "educated", and not at some Bible college, they must have known how to not only administer medicines to save lives, but to also provide for the resultant increase in population, right ? Well ? Second: why couldn't the "educated" folks from the secular camp have provided their "knowledge" after the missonaries had saved these people ? Or was the secular camp's attitude, Oh, let them starve. I don't want to be bothered. After all , I've got mine, right ? Name: Jk #18 Date: Thu Aug 10 12:54:04 1989 IM, don't pull the emotional bullshit...once again, you feebly attempt to make we the "heathens" the bad guys, mercilessly persecuting these "obvious" saints. Face it, you guys f****d up royally, YOU'RE the ones who caused the deaths. There are a certain number of newborn children who die in EVERY country...yes, even the United States, the country with the best medical tehcnology in the world. Would you like to know a bit about the case in Ethiopia? For thousands of years the natives of Ethiopia traditionally had a large number of children for TWO reasons: first, yes, many died in childbirth due to various complications that come from the climate in which they live. The OTHER reason is that they NEED children to support the parents in their old age. Thus, these people have the children, some die, but enough survive to guarantee the parents' security and the existance of the next generation. Before the missionaries came, you may be surprised to know not only was Ethiopia mostly FOREST, but people DIDN'T die wholesale of starvation. There was an established ecosystem, and it WORKED...the fact that these people were still there attested to that. Then, the Europeans came, bringing their God, their religion, and their western ideas. Forested areas were cleared to make way for European crops...and of course, it had the same effect that South America is now suffering: the crops depleted the soil within a season, leaving it barren and useless...a desert. So, more trees were cut down, with no attempt at reforesting. Thus, we have the arable land being depleted at an astounding rate while the birth rate is far exceeding the death rate. And I'm sure you can guess what happens next... Point is, if the missionaries hadn't come in the first place, there would BE no starvation. So don't pull the "you'd rather let them die" crap on me. Name: Stex #22 Date: Thu Aug 10 15:08:01 1989 Bravo JK! That's what I was gonna say, not in those exact words of course. Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Thu Aug 10 18:55:23 1989 One point JK.. "YOU'RE the ones who caused the deaths." Well, I haven't been out of the state, let alone the union, friend. Don't accuse ME of being responsible for their deaths. One, I wasn't alive. Two, I probably wouldn't have been aware if I were alive. Unless you are fully unaware, ALL the people in the Western civilization during those times were unaware or ignorant of delicate ecological balances. If you want to get picky, the governments, traders, military, explorers, and doctors were as much at fault as the missionaries. So, in other words... All persons of Western descent are responsible for the deaths of millions, nahy! I say that Western civilization prevelant at the time was negligent and ignorant of the consequences. They can be neither condemned not justified. I am trying to keep people from ostracizing missionaries as BAD on account of the entire "atmosphere" (White Man's Burden) of the time. I think that this is a reasonable conclusion to the whole argument. Western civiliation as a whole is held accountable for destruction of other cultures, but due to ignorance, they can not be held trully responsible, nor can they be justified. Name: Jk #18 Date: Thu Aug 10 20:03:14 1989 Bah, another feeble attempt to cloud the subject...for the record, just to satisfy everyone, "you" refers to Christians in general, and missionaries in particular. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Thu Aug 10 20:46:42 1989 Well, the missonaries carried their end of the board: they reduced death. Death in the form of childhood diseases. Death in the form of childhood malnutrition. Etc. So they carried their end of the board. They tried. Meanwhile, back at the ranch ( Ranch Heathen Hedonists, by the way ), we have.......what ? Hmmm.....gee, if they would just share their knowledge ( farming, irrigation, etc ), then the folks the missonaries saved could have lived to a ripe old age. Just like the folks at Camp Heathen. But what's that you say ? The folks at Camp Heathen won't come out to help ? Gee. Somehow I'm not surprised. Name: Darkstarr #179 Date: Thu Aug 10 21:23:31 1989 Well thiss may be a dumb thing to state but during this whole issue, i never once heard what kind of govt. etheopia had. Today for the first time, i found out. I wasnt happy with this country sticking there noses into etheopia, before, now that i know there marxist, Im even more unhappy. Here I thought all along, the rich people of the govt, were being stingy, with the food we sent them, now i know better. What better way to get rid of unwanted people is there, than to kill them. Just do it slyly, dont walk in and shoot them, use the old, starve them to death, get out of my face trick. Instead of sending them food, give them weapons, and have them go eat the bastards that run there country. nothing like a fat pig to set a table. Name: Roadtoad #165 Date: Thu Aug 10 22:06:10 1989 Perhaps the missionaries (and I'm not just talking about Ethiopia, here) didn't know about all these ecological balances, but I'm pretty sure they knew the difference between right and wrong. Let's face it, the Spanish missionaries out in CA put the natives to (practically) slave labor in the name of "saving" them. And there was nothing wrong with their lifestyle at the time. Tell ya what, if a bunch of guys came over to my house and said "You've been worshipping the wrong God all this time, so we're gonna make you build this giant Mission and work in OUR crops, I'd be a mite ticked (to put it mildly). I dunno if this fits in right now, but it's my grievance against missionaries. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Thu Aug 10 22:38:22 1989 Roadtoad: I've seen exactly the OPPOSITE occur. Just as easily as you can point out one selct group and blame them for things, I can just as easily point out another group that is doing or has done things completely different. We can't make generalizations folks. I don't remember the name of the group at this moment, but they were located in a northern section of Africa. Instead of making the natives build the mission or the church, the organization recruited christians from other countries to VOLUNTEER their MONEY, TIME and LABOR to build this for the natives. Not everyone is as bad as you like to think. Just because you don't happen to agree with their motives doesn't make them evil people. Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Thu Aug 10 22:47:34 1989 Not my own, not my own... Nail me to a cross... To die is gain, to live is Christ... Shees Jk, do you have a problem with Christ or something. Get rational at least and admit that it was the atmosphere of the era that caused the problems. If you refuse to admit that you can NOT single out the Church as being the root of the problem, but the Church, State, and Art (don't ask) are responsible--then you choose to ignore history and obviously have a chip on your shoulder, or should I say, a cross to bear . This is a religion/theological subbie, not a slam thy brother into the wall and generalize/slander him because of his belief and the sins of past generations. Next topic...PLEASE! This is getting REALLY boring and trite. Name: Axl Rose #93 Date: Thu Aug 10 23:52:55 1989 God just doesn't exist. Wake up and smell the coffee. God is an impossibility. Think about the whole concept come on. How did god become god???????????? Name: Daigoro #41 Date: Fri Aug 11 01:13:30 1989 I think that there used to be this other universe before ours. But one day in the year of their lord 1996, someone had the idea of putting both saccarin and Nutra Sweet in the same cup of coffee. The resulting reaction had as its end product a material so dense that its gravity caused the entire univers to collapse. Well, after everything got pulled in, the universe, now the size of a baseball, woke up and called itself God. The real god got pissed and turned this new god into a ball of flame that the universe we know today. Needless to say, both gods died in the explosion, but not before they had written the bible, knowing full well the havok it would create, and laughing their way into their graves.