Name: Heavnsent #42 Date: Sat Aug 05 11:03:38 1989 Radical I think it was asked exactly what religion some of us are. I'm a Christian......whatever the Lord says goes......as for the name my Church has on it.......Evangelical Free. Also, that post about Christ coming back in 2000, Nobody knows for sure, and as of yet, not even Christ knows, but.......for those of you who know or have heard of Dr. James Dobson.....in his family there is apoem written by a 13th century woman. She wrote this poem or she died(can't remember which) 500 years before Columbus discovered America. Her name is Mother Shipton and she claimed to be a prophetess. That right there is what I'm a little weary about because the Bible doesn't speak too good of prophetesses. But anyway, in this poem, Mother Shipton predicted many things that extend to "those who see this century through"(very last stanza, in which she had just spoken of an exact date, 1926) will see Gabriel stand on sea and shore.....etc.,etc. If you want....I'll listen and type out each line. In case your all running out of things to question..... One other comment.....You all tell me I'm narrow-minded and so forth, and yet all the questions we answer from you, you keep contradicting, and won't give it the least little chance...who is being narrow-minded? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sat Aug 05 11:31:32 1989 I'm open-minded, quite in fact...but when your posts repeatedly say the same things over and over, with no proof, I'm supposed to change my mind? I have given it a few chances, believe me.. FE: Heard "by creation"? What the hell is that supposed to mean? You said something to that effect...that a person has "heard of GOd BY CREATION". Eh? I was born and that makes this GOd guy and me intimate? Wait a sec..that means that everybody has heard of him even though their minds don't know a thing about him? That makes plenty of sense... Missionaries do more harm than good. SInce they see it fit to deem that any relgion other than their own just MUST be changed, they are ruining beliefs, cultures, etc, just because they believe that theirs is right and superior, etc. If I remember correctly, they're the ones that encouraged Ethiopians to have more of "God's children", etc, eventually causing the food shortage we all know too well, beause of overpopulation.. Name: Jk #18 Date: Sat Aug 05 17:29:15 1989 Missionaries ARE responsible for the Ethiopian problem, though not exactly in that way. What they did was introduce Western medicine to the peoples living there. And that's what triggered the whole thing. You see, for literally thousands of years both the birth rate and the death rate were very high among the Ethiopians. A lot of babies were born, and a lot of people died relatively young. That's how nature had set it up. When the missionaries came in and artificially lowered the death rate with medicines, but did NOTHING to the birth rate, you had instant overpopulation. If they had just taken the time to try and educate the people before playing God, a lot of suffering could have been avoided. Good intentions, but they ended up making the situation much worse. And as for the drought...yes, it played a factor, but not enough of one to explain the mass starvation going on now. Ethiopia had been hit with massive droughts before (tho the cutting down of the forests for farmland, needed for European cattle and cash crops didn't help...another brilliant Western idea). The missionaries tried to change a culture, and ended up putting it in worse shape than ever before. Name: Midnight Rambler #103 Date: Sat Aug 05 21:03:14 1989 I agree..Has anyone out there ever heard of Malthus? Name: Heavnsent #42 Date: Sun Aug 06 12:52:12 1989 Gryphon....the fact the God gives you and I every minute we breathe makes me believe then that our relationship with God is intimate. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Mon Aug 07 06:31:02 1989 But then, you say he created us, but I don't feel like another evolution vs creationism argument right now.. So I'll skip that,a nd say :If he loved us, he wouldn't take away "every minute that we breathe", so it's not anything SPECIAL or anythin'.. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Mon Aug 07 08:50:55 1989 Well, I'm glad to see everybody's got a real good handle on the Ethiopian food crisis. How 'bout them dang missionairies ! They stick their dang noses into Ethiopia's business by bringing in medicine which lowers the death rate ! Who'd of thunk it ?!?! How ! I'm going to have to re-evaluate my feelings about missionaries: I never knew they could stoop so low. I've always been of the opinion that we should let the poor black b****rds starve® I mean, after all , it's not like they are white people like me or anything import. And if the missonaries keep giving them medicine, why , the next thing you know they'll be wanting ME to help feed them !! Or send them farming equipment !! Or give them educational assistance !!! Boy, those missonaries are ignorant a****les !! To impose their belief that all men have a right to live !! I mean, we're talking about non-whites here !!!ˇ Who the heck do these missonaries think they are: GOD ? Name: Jk #18 Date: Mon Aug 07 11:10:33 1989 Oh good...VERY mature of you. Label me a fanatical racist to discredit my argument. Too, TOO logical on your part. Fact of the matter is, your high-and-mighty missionaries came in and imposed THEIR will on these people with ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD for what the consequences of their actions would be. They simply stroll in and say, "Ah, a group of uneducated heathens. Let's make them just like US!" They had NO right to interfere with these peoples' culture or their lives. Tellya what...since we're on the topic of ludicrous comparisons, let's try this: We should have let Hitler win World War II; he was just trying to change our heathen cultures and make them better...remake them in his own image. What was so wrong with THAT? Get my point? Your missionary buddies stuck their noses where they never should have been and all but destroyed a culture and the country. And what's worse, after they did change it, they changed it for the worse...they FORGOT to FINISH THE JOB. They lowered the death rate and did NOTHING to the birth rate. That was IRRESPONSIBLE, and the hundreds of thousands of dead are on THEIR hands. Name: Ozz #141 Date: Mon Aug 07 11:27:57 1989 JK... The missionaries did a half assed job... They reduced the the death rate thru medicine, but neglected to raise the food supply, and have instilled in these people that birth-control is WRONG! Well, I would rather have birth control than a bunch of starving people. black or white.... It is very nice to raise part of the culture, but they forgot to raise the education so that they could handle it... How nice, how superior.... if we are in God's image, I can certainly see why this world is so messed up. Missionaries also killed of the Indians on the west coast,(although, overall, they did a better job, they killed them off thru white mans disease, totally unwittingly, instead of lowering the death rate and starving them... ) Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Mon Aug 07 16:31:54 1989 News Flash: Missionaries are human beings, prone to mistakes!! The attitude back then was a little warped, but the Christian missionary community HAS learned something from the past. Competent sociologist and anthropologists go along on these trips to weigh the effects and consequences. Missionaries don't FORCE Jesus on people anymore (commonly), they help provide physical, emotional, and spiritual support to those in need. Missionaries offer something they value highly. Name: The Radical #163 Date: Mon Aug 07 17:31:05 1989 Prone to MISTAKES!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Some Mighty Huge F***ing Mistakes if you ask me. Lesse, the virtual extinction through disease of the Hawaiians, partly caused by making them wear western style clothing, which they coudn't handle in that climate. The deaths of Millions of ethiopeans, the death of Millions of american indians. etc., etc., Gee, Sorry guys for accidentally committing genocide against you!!! It was only a puny f***ing mistake!!!!!!! Š43/50: Hmmm....radical was that a mistake ooooorr.... Name: Heavnsent #42 Date: Mon Aug 07 19:18:06 1989 was it intentional????? We don't PUSH Jesus on anyone........Christians are to "spread the news of Jesus Christ". The people then choose. And about Gryphon's comment on if God really loved us...why would he take away our breath? The fact that you blasphemy and God still lets you live....shows how much He loves you!How merciful! Name: Jk #18 Date: Mon Aug 07 20:14:16 1989 Great...you don't push Jesus on anyone. Read W. Somerset Maugham's "Rain" sometime and then tell me that... The whole damn subject makes me sick. Do you know what the "missionaries" on the western coast of the United States did? They would convert the "heathens" then send their converts against the converts of a rival sect. Whole tribes were wiped out that way. And as for not "pushing" Jesus on anyone, when the missionaries set up shop, if you didn't convert, you were ostrasized from the community. I better quit now before I really get pissed. Name: Daigoro #41 Date: Mon Aug 07 22:13:51 1989 Before I jump down anyones throat I want to ask some questions.... Heavensent, Fire Escape, and Nu Kreecher: Do you approve of what the missionaries of the past did, and do you think they were right? Also do you subscribe to the view that one must accept Jesus to be admitted into heavan. (You say that Jesus died for our sins and you explain that everyone, even the most faithful can't be without sin. Well, consider a person that has heard of god, allbeit incomplete knowledge, and neither consciously rejected nor accepted it. This person did, however, follow a code of ethics and morals much like that of the Bible. He never killed, stole, or coveted etc... Could not this relatively minor lack of acceptance be just another sin the like of which we are all succeptible too, one of those things Jesus died for?) JK, Stex, Gryphon, and the rest: Isolating the issue of Ethiopia, were the missionaries conscious of the effects their medicine could have? Surely they didn't have maliscious intent in giving medicine. Granted the teaching against birth control caused problems, but did they know what the problems would be? Further, we probably shouldn't lump all m issionaries into one catagory. If someone says the Ethipian missionary made a mistake, don't turn to Hawaii or the Indians. The stories about the Indians are criminal, but that's unrelated to the person in Ethiopia. --Daigoro--One of those Christians who interprets religion as he will... Name: Jk #18 Date: Tue Aug 08 01:54:38 1989 The problem is that these missionaries, following some divine light or similar crap decided to alter these peoples' culture without even CONSIDERING the effects of their interference. You can chalk that up to simple human error.,. yes, but that does NOT mean they should forget the thousands who have died as a result of their "tiny error". Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Tue Aug 08 06:21:25 1989 No, I think the missionaries used little forethought... When lack of forethought was applicable, and were acting in malice when that was applicable. I am saying that one can not judge Christianity according to the actions of the past missionaries of the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches. Regarding salvation: It is clearly stated that Jesus Christ is the full revelation of Christ to Man. He is the only way to achieve salvation, by faith in God which brings the fruits of good works. Whether or not Christ can be manifest and save those who have "lesser" Light (BC Israel, BC community, isolated, infant) is up to Him. The Bible states that this is so in passing... Name: Ironman #120 Date: Tue Aug 08 08:34:33 1989 Traders used to spread smallpox among Indians in order to expedite their eradication. So I guess we must condemn all forms of commerce. Speaking of missionaries in the Pacific, I guess I better not bring up the subject of who the folks were who aided and assisted lepers at a time when everyone else would write them off. Most of the lepers were white, it was alright that they received help. Name: Axl Rose #93 Date: Tue Aug 08 10:30:34 1989 Haha!!! The misisonaries will BURN in hell....for their actions!!! Hey, EVEN IF HEAVEN EXISTED (very unlikely!!), would you REALLY want to go??!? I wouldn't eternity sure is a long time. I would just want to die! Fini! Caput! That's history folks! And plus, you'd be around closed-minded jackasses like FE. Now, THAT sends a shiver down my spine......... Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Tue Aug 08 11:13:54 1989 Missionaries... are human beings, and as such, they are far from perfect. Whenever a missionary is speading a gospel of CHURCHianity and pushing "religion" over Jesus then you will have problems. This may be one major reason that so much harm has been done with such efforts. Someone asked what religion I was, like Heavensent, the only "lable" I claim is "Believer". I am a believer and follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ and his disciples as recorded by the Bible. I don't follow any "CHURCH" or "denomination" as I don't believe the Bible supports denominationalism. I guess you could call me an Independent Generic Bible Believing Jesus Person. That basically sums it all up right there. I think God is a great respecter of individuality and culture (as an experession of that individuality) so long as a tradition and or practice is not outside His will for man. That leaves a LOT of room for freedom (despite what people think). God's not that small. God doesn't need humans to change people, He does a great job of it on His own thankyou.