Name: Stex #22 Date: Thu Aug 03 19:06:24 1989 Just a few comments about the die hard Xian's narrow mindedness. So FE it's ok if you trample all over our beliefs and try to force your views on us, been when it's the opposite it's like poor Xian us. Uh huh. And like others have mentioned, and kinda a contradictory statement that Xians use, just what about those other religions, the people that never have heard of this one God? They have their beliefs, stuff that is sacred to 'em, yet you feel free to go send missionaries in and tell them your right, some gall there me thinks. Also ever notice that most of this missionary stuff is in poor areas, either war, drought, or something else is going on. I mean, if I was in a famine area, and some missionary came up to me and started preaching, and he caried food and some aid to lessen my hardships, sure I'd say I believe to get the benefits. I dunno, like Gryph said, is God stupid? You say he is omnipitent and all, if so he wouldn't have just one chosen people, it wouldn't matter whether we believed in him or other gods, as long as our actions were basicly good, and we lived a good life. I mean I doubt the big d00d up in the sky is prejidiced, eh? I mean a lot of people in different areas were raised with different beliefs and such, they had no control of what religion they were gonna be, I mean very few people really decide their beliefs now a days, they just listen to the crap on TV, and the BS most of the preachers preach, Šfollow the stuff their parents, teachers and elders have shown them and all. Just 'cause a majority follows it doesn't mean it is right. I dunno, has it ever occured to you that all the different religions and stuff might've been gods way of revealing himself to different people, different cultures, different times? I dunno just a thought. Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Fri Aug 04 06:37:38 1989 Stex...Nope, He is NOT predjudice... The Bible says that God is no respector of persons. We all have sinned and deserve death that comes from sin. But God, in His initial plan, gave us free will--knowing that we would fall--and then became the Man--Jesus Christ--to offer Himself as payment for our sins. It is like a Gift offered to you. This Gift is offered to everyone, but you must reach out and recieve it. After you have recieved it, you must learn how to use it. Pertaining to those who haven't heard, the Bible talks about them in passing (the Bible is written to those who have heard, encouraging them to tell those who haven't), saying that they will be judged according to their deeds. All I can be concerned with is MY relationship with God and what He wants ME to do. Using the "people who haven't heard" as an out and excuse to reject Christianity is poor philosophical reasoning. It also ignores what the Bible has to say. I have investigated other faiths: Craft, Luciferianism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism. I welcome rational, mature discussion of faith and do not get "defensive" when my faith is questioned. Such rationalizations of "Xians" is irrational and predjudice, at best. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Aug 04 07:06:36 1989 I rather like Masonism...only because of the name....heh. ;) Nu and FE: Welcome...glad you could join us. (mutter mutter damn cavalry mutter..):) Here's the catch: PROVE all mankind has sinned.... Name: Axl Rose #93 Date: Fri Aug 04 09:06:34 1989 I like it when someone trys to prove that god exists by using something else that hasn't been proved (namely the bible). Sorta like if you were gonna prove something in geometry and you used the "because postulate"..... Anyway, it does my great joy in knowing that ALL the Christians on this BBS are going to hell. That's what the Ayatollah said and he was a religious leader, so HE knows what he's talking about......... Still an avent followere of Zeus, the only deity who makes ANY sense...... Name: Doomer #20 Date: Fri Aug 04 09:48:36 1989 Nu: That was not a rationalization, I was trying to show you that either A) The God that the Christians have made is incredibly callous B) He doesn't give a shit what the hell happens to us or C) He's predjudiced as Hell. I don't stand by any of those specifically, but you have said that no one can go to heaven untill he/she has accepted Christ, etc. So exactly what did God do with the rest of the world?? I can't believe that a God who is (aHEM) All-loving would cast them into Hell simply because they didn't have the means to hop a plane Calvary! And every time I bring that up, you don't answer. SO, either you are full of shit when you say "Everyone has to accept Christ" or Christ killed one hell of a lot more people than he saved, no? Name: Ironman #120 Date: Fri Aug 04 10:41:49 1989 Hello, I'm baaaacccccckkkkkkkk !!!!!! So you girls just get the kinks out of your girdles and straighten the seams in your nylons ! No pushing and shoving and REMEMBER : REMAIN SEATED WHEN THE BUS IS IN MOTION ! KEEP YOUR ARMS AND HEADS INSIDE THE BUS: DO NOT STICK THEM OUT THE WINDOWS ! So: where were we ? Name: Heavnsent #42 Date: Fri Aug 04 11:12:41 1989 Just the fact that God sent His Son to die for us(mere strangers), shows He is a loving God. Nu Kreechur I find this encouraging- Be strong! Be courageous! Do not be afraid of them! For the Lord your God will be with you. He will neither fail you nor forsake you. Deuteronomy 31:6 Name: Midnight Rambler #103 Date: Fri Aug 04 11:50:34 1989 I am a deist. I belive that there was a single, creating force which made out universe. But, that's it. Some dude made the universe, set the rules, and took off. All of you non-deists out there...prove me wrong, how can you show me that any of your deities exsist today? I am not talking about bible passages, where is the proof? Also, I have reasearced many fanatical branches of christianity. There are thoes in your religion that belive that christ will come back in the year 2000. They also believe that the only way this will happen is if the whole world is christian. Are there any of thoes people among us? Name: The Radical #163 Date: Fri Aug 04 12:12:51 1989 Heavensent, "Mere Strangers" ?!?!?!?!!? If we are to believe your bible, god created us, so we can hardly be strangers to him. He created us, so we are his responsibility.....We shouldn't have to play His stupid Games to get to Heaven. He owes it to us for creating us, we didn't ask to be created and become his playthings. Read Heinlein's "Job: A Comedy Of Justice", I think he hit the nail right on the head in that one... Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Fri Aug 04 13:46:58 1989 The New Testament makes it clear that people will be... judged according to the light that they have. All the elements of the Old Testament Law are not known by people living in remote parts of the world. But we do read that they do have a law "written on their hearts" (Rom 2:15) They are judged by the law they do not know and are found wanting. No one keeps the ethic he has even if he invents it himself. The pagan in the darkest depts of Africa has an ethic. But even that ethic is violated. Thus he remains exposed to the judgment of God. So often the primitive is idealized as being untainted by the corruption of civilization, but this doesn't fit the facts. If a person in a remote area has never heard of Christ, he will NOT be punished for haveing NEVER HEARD. RATHER He will be punished for his rejection of the Father of whom he has heard (by creation) and for the disobediance to the law that is within his heart. If all men have heard of the Father but naturally reject Him, then it follows that all men NEED to know of the redemption offered in Christ. To have NO knowledge of Christ is to be in jeopardy because of prior rejection of the revelation of the Father. But to hear of Christ and reject Him is to be in a state of double jeopardy. Now not only has the Father been rejected but the Son as well. Thus every time the gospel is proclaimed it bears a two-edged sword. To those who believe it is eternal life and to those who reject it is eternal death. Yet people still say, "What happens to the INNOCENT person who has never heard?" When we say this we are already loading the question with significant assumptions. The INNOCENT native who has never heard is in excellent shape, and we need not be anxious for his redemption. The INNOCENT person doesn't need to hear about Jesus because he has NO NEED of Redemption, he can save himself by his INNOCENCE. When we frame the question this way though, we assum that there ARE innocent people in this world. If that is so (an assumption which basic christianity denies) then we need not be concerned about them. We still have to ask though, "What happens to the GUILTY person who has never heard." What is often meant is not a perfect innocence but rather a relative innocence. Wickedness appears to be related to knowledge in that those who do evil without knowledge of it's nature are considered LESS guilty than those who know it is wrong. Since it would be grossly injust for God to condemn people by a message they have never heard, God holds them accountable for their lives in LIGHT of their KNOWLEDGE of HIM (The Father) by virtue of the morality He has buried in their being. At this point many would say that it is then best to leave the native alone and not place his soul in jeopardy by making him accountable for a knowledge of Christ. This would be all fine and dandy if you could be perfectly sure that the native has not sinned in his ignorance and rebelled against the God he DOES know by virtue of his conscience. Do we really want to take that chance? In light of this, the BEST option is to SECURE their salvation in Christ. Thus we proclaim the day of salvation to all. Name: The Doc #139 Date: Fri Aug 04 14:48:46 1989 Fire Escape and Heavnsent: Which religion do you belong to? Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, what? I still believe the bible is a book of stories, much like greek or norse mythology. I also say if God is supposed to be all-loving, there would be no hell, satan, or punishment for what we did. He is supposed to be all-loving and all-forgiving. Why do only humans worship or feel a need to worship a higher being? Animals don't seem to worship anything. (I know, this is stretching it a little.) "When in doubt, f*ck itŪ When not in doubt - get in doubt!" - Old Poee Saying -From the Principia Discordia Hail Eris! <==Figure that one out! Name: Axl Rose #93 Date: Fri Aug 04 15:35:52 1989 Whoa! It is getting deep in here with all that B.S. that was just posted.... Name: Stex #22 Date: Fri Aug 04 17:22:15 1989 Okay. I still don't see the point tho. I mean if this presumeably innocent native is gonna be saved, why send the missionaries and such in? I mean they will bring ideas contrary to his belief, and on the chance that he doesn't except this new belief, the d00d is damned because he has the knowledge, your word only and some paper he probably can't read. Gee that is like some d00d going up to you and saying here is the real faith, here is my proof, believe, you don't believe, your damned to hell. Gee simple idea really, Xianity has no room for harmony with other groups, either this is the ONLY way or you get skrewed over, so what your saying is the d00ds, Hindu's and Buddist's who are essentially good and know of this Christ are going tto Hell 'cause because they don't believe exactly like you do, but they have this knowledge. I dunno, just doesn't work for me. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Fri Aug 04 19:00:04 1989 FE: That was basically 3 posts of general nonsense. Anyway, so basically if we KNOW about Christ and don't go to Church every Sunday and don't pray too often, but lead a basically good life we're damned but if I was a Native and didn't know a thing but lead a decent life I'm saved?? Come on. I tend to believe God is a bit more fair than THAT! Name: Nu Kreechur #107 Date: Sat Aug 05 07:13:13 1989 Do you get the feeling some people just hit ... Come on now, people. You asked the Christians a question, and we have been trying to answer. If you are unsatisfied, please state the reasons why and what you would like us to clarify. All concerned: the Bible DOES say that each shall be judged according to the Light that has been revealed unto him. I won't get too deep into this, because of my own personal views which are somewhat unorthodox. Using the native and his light as an excuse to refuse yours is dodging the issue. The Doc: Eris, a major deity from some forms of paganism... DooM: Actually, if you are a "good" person, have heard of Jesus Christ and His Word, and reject His gift; then, I would have to ask you why? And if so, why would the native who didn't hear and had the possibility of heaven matter to you? Heaven ISN'T a competition, because without the assistance of God we are all losers. Axl: people using one unproven subject to "prove" another. A) Most of us are trying to avoid that, you know me and philosophy. B) Ever heard of science, the whole science thing is built upon the Law of Casuality--a Law that presupposes it's own validity. C) You are agnostic, NOT a paganist. If you were pagan, you know that we'd have some more interesting possibilities for weekends. Stex: Christianity DOES NOT damn other individuals. Each of us is concerned about the full revelation of God given in Jesus Christ, and sharing that, as the motivating force for our life and love, with others for their "perusal" if you will. The Bible, the Christian "handbook," speaks about those "outside" the Light in passing. If you can find the reference where it says that those who haven't heard are going to hell, could you please site this. Don't say, "So and so religious person told me so." I don't follow religion, religion sux (Scott Roman--No Laughing Matter), I want to know what the Bible says about this. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Sat Aug 05 08:50:57 1989 IRONMAN's Handy-Tip-of-the-Day: After you ask a person a question, do him/her the courtesy of actually reading his/her response. That's it ! So, back to the posting...... Name: The Radical #163 Date: Sat Aug 05 09:09:25 1989 Nothing personal, FE, but I think your full of shit....the only thing missionarys accomplish is devastating native populations with new diseases, and destroying old cultures, just so they can force Xianity down their throats.