Name: Cheesehead #73 Date: Fri Mar 03 20:45:46 1989 I agree with HC totally on this one. Many of the Roman Catholic 'traditions' were borrowed directly from other religions present as the Church grew. I don't know the names of them, but the rituals and holidays were just altered to include the saints and other religious items. The people feel more comfortable with a new religion when they don't have to change all of their beliefs and such. Name: Jk #18 Date: Sat Mar 04 13:06:52 1989 yes, I believe Christmas was originally a "pagan" ritual to the sun god...somethng about the shortest day of the year, where he "died" and then gradually got more powerful...anyway... (I'm still mind-blanked here...been a long week. Just go on without me...) Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Sat Mar 04 18:05:06 1989 Gryphon, How many ways can you interpret a straighforward statement. If you read a passage in the context of the surrounding subjects and look at who is being addressed, it becomes very hard to come up with multiple interpretations of anyone thing. For example, let's look at what Jesus taught concerning our enemies, or those people who hate us. This is a place where the so called midevil "christians" seemed to go against the OBVIOUS teaching of Jesus. "You have heard it said, LOVE your neighbor and HATE your enemy. BUT I tell you: LOVE your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." Are you trying to tell me that there is any possible way to interpret this passage to support the killing of your enemies. I would like to see you do it. I have tried, and haven't had any luck. Any way I read it, it comes out, Love your enemies. This principle applies to any major teaching on how CHRISTIANS should live and the fruits their lives ought to reflect. You should also notice that Jesus said TRUE SONS of God, WOULD do this. "..And pray for those who persecute you SO THAT YOU MAY BE SONS OF YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN." HE knew that real Christians would obey this teaching. So by Jesus' own words, it seems obvious that believers obey this teaching. Would then one who does not obey this really have the right to call themselves a follower of Jesus? I don't think so. Obediance to these teachings are evidence of a transformed life. If the fruit ain't there, then it's not a Christian tree according to Jesus. See Matthew 7:15-23. It adresses this very issue. Not everyone you say's 'Lord, Lord is a real Christian. Jesus said so. Name: Bc #67 Date: Sat Mar 04 22:29:55 1989 Wait a Minute! If the darn thing is so easy and straightforward to interpret correctly, why is it always misinterpreted. Citing one 'obvious' verse does not answer the question. What makes you think that your view of the bible is correct? There are verses in the bible that describe situations that are now socially unacceptable. What should we follow, the new traditions or the bible verses? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun Mar 05 10:45:44 1989 FE, I can grant that some verses are so obvious that they cannot be interpreted wrongly...'ell, take any book and you'll find some like that. But I'm talking about all of it....not everything is "clear cut" like the example you gave. Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Sun Mar 05 18:49:46 1989 Getting back to the whole bit that Cheesehead and I mentioned before, people don't want to do things that would "spoil their fun." I mean really, how many people are going to let someone kick the shit out of them and then say, "I love you, brother!" and get the shit kicked out of them even more? (Oh, let me say the naughtiest word on TV here: FART. Thanx.) It just isn't going to happen. And how many people are going to love an axe murderer? I mean, when it comes right down to it, someone is going to do something that no one likes. It is hard for people to give up hate. Another thing just occurred to me, if we are supposed to love our enemies, then did God love the Egyptians? The ones that he slaughtered whole-sale? Did God love Jobs kids, the one that got killed off? Does God love witches even though he says that we shall not suffer a witch to live? Does God love Satan? (He should, the have the same mentality at times.) Really, who does God really love? Name: Topper #79 Date: Sun Mar 05 20:54:27 1989 The verse said: Love the enemies and pray for them if I believe correctly. Well this could be interperted as meaning you still could kill your enemies but it would be mercy killing because you love them and are putting them out of misery of not following the christian religion and swaying others away. Even the most straightforward passages can be interperted differently. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Mon Mar 06 19:02:20 1989 This is why it is important to read ALL the New Testament. If you look at all the gospel accounts, at all the epistles, you will see a consistent message. Yes, I do think that God LOVES everyone, even Satan. He loves the person, but Hates the sin (imperfection). If he didn't love us, then he wouldn't have killed His Son to save us. You just don't do that for someone you hate. And I agree, Hate is something that one is unable to let go of on their own, the Christian life was NEVER meant to be lived on our own power. Tha is why Jesus said that the Disciples and all the believers would be taught and empowered by the very person of God in the form of his Holy Spirit. When on turns to Jesus, the Spirit of God enters them and by their consent, takes control of their desires and gives them the supernatural power to obey these things. We can always rebel, but the desire and the ability is there if we are willing to take it and let God help us. - Fire Escape Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Tue Mar 07 16:30:33 1989 So, FE, what you are saying is that it's OK to burn the witches and fry the convicts? Good. That is being really humanitarian. Looks like a good setup for another Salem kill-fest. You also didn't directly adress the point that Cheesehead and I made. So, you say that nobody's perfect, yet you are going to claim that just because these people "sinned" that they are not Christian, i.e. they do not hold Juesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour. Taking that into account, they are just folks that are having a harder time in life than you. So you better be willing to take into your arms anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as "true" Christians from now on, unless you can give me a reason not to. Also, did I see the word "Hate" come up in that last post? Now, the last time I checked, your God was "all-loving." What is wrong with this picture? Name: Cheech Wizard #12 Date: Wed Mar 08 13:05:28 1989 First, I would like to make the polite request that this discussion be quickly and quietly carried over to the Religion subbie. Second, the death-threats on Rushdie's life are not entirely religiously based. Admittedly, Islam is one of the less tolerant world religions around, but Khomeini's position is that of a theocrat. To inspire the people, he must use religion to its fullest effect. It's an unsavory thing to do, but the best religions can also become power-crazed. I point to the Pope in Medieval and Renaissance Italy, and John Calvin in Geneva. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Wed Mar 08 15:39:07 1989 Religion subbie? Whazzat? Heh. You know these things have a way of infecting innocent subbies.. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Wed Feb 22 14:35:21 1989 On Omniscience and Omnipotence: A.W Tozer said, "To say that God is omniscient is to say that He possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. But it is more: it is to say that God has never learned and cannot learn." 2nd Corinthians 3:18 tell us that God has never learned from anyone. Isaiah stated the same thing. If God at any time or in any manner received into His mind knowledge that He did not possess and had not possessed from eternity, He would be imperfect and less than Himself..Psalm 139:1-18 sum up the total ability of God to know what is knowable. Psalm 147:4 and 5 describe the infinte knowledge and power of God. 1st John 3:20 reminds us also that our God knows everything. Jesus consistently taught that there was nothing impossible for God to do, no power was beyond His ability, see Matthew 19:26 and Luke 1:37 and Mark 14:36. Lucifer's only sin was rebellion. Rebellion that took root in his ever growing pride and greed. God knew when he created Lucifer that he would rebel and hate Him but God also knew that he must allow sentient beings free will, or their love and obediance were worthless and meaningless. Is this the work of an imperfect sadistic god or the work of a confident, loving all powerful God? I think the Bible supports the later implication better. Where there is not freedom, there can be no love® - Fire Escape Name: The Silver Sword #68 Date: Wed Feb 22 14:46:43 1989 But Geryon is a DEMON. In D&D anyway. Heh. Geryon's a cool name, though. Next time you talk to him, if I'm not there, say hi from me.... Name: Jk #18 Date: Wed Feb 22 15:43:04 1989 Just a comment...FE, trying to prove various aspects of God by using Bible quotes is self-defeating...if God indeed did "inspire" the Bible, then it say exactly what HE wants it to say, which is NOT necessarily the truth. If you're going to use quotes, at least try a somewhat more neutral source. TSS: I'm not gonna comment much on this whole thing (you don't wanna know...), but in D&D Geryon is an Arch Devil. So thppt. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Thu Feb 23 16:12:34 1989 Gryph: It was spelled Erebus...I don't know WHAT that means, tho. Hmmm, I'll have to check the 15th to see if its on a weekend, might be phun to hold the bash that day...heh. Anyone else have a 'nightmare' or something that night? All I know is that at about 2:56 I woke up and I was sweating like all Hell...and I don't remember anything at all...strange. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Feb 24 14:36:48 1989 No I didn't I've had semi-bad dreams for the first time in awhile, but no nightmares... The 15th is on a Wednesday;, i already checked. Too bad it isn't during Spring Break....at least not for me. Erebus? Hmm. Damn, it sounds familiar. Ach vell... ------------------------------------------------------ FE: Using the Bible to prove God's existence and goodwill is like me taking Mein Kampf to prove that Hitler had lots of good ideas. (no, I'm not comparing Xianity to Naziism..). If this person wrote or supposedly wrote the book, then it's going to be biased. If I wrote a boook I wouldn't say "Well, Lucifer was a nice guy but I banished him anyway." I'd make him seem really evil and bad.. Name: Utwo #109 Date: Sun Feb 26 10:30:37 1989 I'm here. I know you're all happy. Gryph: I liked what you said about the 0 stuff. I think in someway that it is related to our power. How come I'm the only guy interested in the powers? I also thought about the stuff of who would go first and all that. I think I might go first because I'm the youngest and after the 1000 years 15 comes first. Did you ever think that this 1000 year stuff could figurative. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun Feb 26 12:03:41 1989 Time is relative, eh? It may just be 1000 to others. Powers...I never thought of that. It conveniently slipped my mind..huh. The 0 makes sense, tho...donno why. INstinct...intuition <-my strong point.... Name: Stex #22 Date: Sun Feb 26 16:55:14 1989 Actually, what I think the zero(0) means is that you won't have anything to do with whatever might or might not happen. 'cause we have brought you two up when we have used it and, well your not in the scheme here. Sorry, eh? Now Gryph's disappointed, eh? The great diety is non-important ...heh. We askd who out of the Horde would be involved and you two and TSS weren't mentioned at all. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Mon Feb 27 06:37:31 1989 We never asked about TSS, tho, except "is he one of the group", yet when you asked "is the group all here" it said yes, 'cept for WW. I'm saying perhaps the two of us *won't*, but we might...the thing doesn't know, but will say no..® Too tired to talk about it... Name: The Silver Sword #68 Date: Mon Feb 27 14:38:40 1989 Maybe the thing just has no idea who I was, since I wasn't in the vicinity, or hadn't been in that room before...maybe it just guessed, or said yes just for spite, eh¿ Or, maybe it just had no idea what you were talking about... Name: Crystal Warrior #25 Date: Mon Feb 27 14:52:50 1989 Ahem.....well Ut-wo actualy if your recall...I was interested in the powers. I asked it tiwce what my power was. First it said "Death"....then I asked again...I told it to be more specific....and it spelled out "Vampyre". Not the y speling instead of "i". That's the older way, the AUTHENTIC spelling of the word vampyre. - Crystal Warrior,out. Name: Stex #22 Date: Tue Feb 28 19:31:33 1989 Vampyre, fer some reason I prefer that spelling, dunno why though. Anyways, Gryph, that was my interpretation, after all from previous experiences and at the bash when I asked about you, for you and ut-wo it said you wouldn't be around for the thousand year reign thingy, and that you had no powers, and that well generally, not that you aren't important, but that you weren't gonna play any part in the chain of events it predicted. Of course that could change, but I dunno, the board I guess has been pretty acurate so far, and TSS it just didn't like so... No offense TSS, only relaying what it said. Also kinda an odd experience, today I took my driver permit test and weeks before DooM, Gauntlet, and I asked it what I was gonna get, at first it said 98, then we asked for the written test and it said 95...well I got the 95, kinda spooky, eh? Ask DooM if ya don't believe, he was there. Name: The Silver Sword #68 Date: Wed Mar 01 17:41:47 1989 Well, let's see what happens, if it doesn't like me, if I would ouija it! I mean, would the little markere go flying across the room like a boomerang, then return and hit me in the head, and kill me? Hah! I don't think it doesn't like me...well, maybe, but at any rate, it will be interesting... hee hee...