Name: The Doc #139 Date: Mon Jun 12 13:28:07 1989 Whatever makes you feel good, fine. But how can you say we condemn ourselves if we don't believe it like you do? I am not a condemned man! Name: Jk #18 Date: Mon Jun 12 17:37:38 1989 Exactly...I loved that post: "You can believe that, but I have to tell you...YOU'RE WRONG!" FE, just cut the bullshit already....nobody wants to hear it. Name: Roadtoad #165 Date: Mon Jun 12 18:01:24 1989 Did you ever notice that FE is always preaching at people? Name: The Radical #163 Date: Mon Jun 12 20:05:18 1989 Come off it, FE, So we should believe in god because god says he's god (although he has been strangely quiet the last 2000 years. Would you beleive a used car salesman if he tried to tell you "this corvette was only driven on sundays by a little old lady." Would you take his word for it, or would you check it out yourself. Christianity has some good points to be made for it, but you have somehow spectacularly managed to miss them all. "Worship Me becaause I am God. Bullshit! I want some proof first. The bible isn't proof, it is just a collection of legends that may or may not be true. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Mon Jun 12 21:22:24 1989 But FE's my favourite thumper. ];^) Nice post, Fire Escape, I wish it were true. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Mon Jun 12 23:38:08 1989 Gee, I despise the Bible? My faith is based on the Bible, so I could hardly say that I despise it. In fact, my philosophy comes straight from the Bible. What makes your interpretation any more right than mine? You say that God is great and wonderful etc., and then in you next breath say that he would send his children to hell for their actions. I doubt any parent would do that to their child, and as discussed earlier, man at least in comparison to God is evil, or at least more so. If this is true, then how could a good and loving God be outmatched by humans? Get real, you don't have to ask for gifts from God, they are given freely. God's love includes everyone. Like rain, it hits everybody, no matter what. If you do not believe this, then please refrain from saying that God is all good and all loving. Doing so is a blatent contradiction with egotistical overtones. Name: Brightside #153 Date: Tue Jun 13 17:47:29 1989 Well, lets see if I can jump in here. I, like Snappy, believe that Gods love is`for everyone to - just like the rain that falls on everyone. But, just as with a human parent, a child doesn't have to accept that love - he can shove it back in your face, do dope and waste himself; as for as the rain goes, you can always go inside and then you don't get wet. So, in my humble opinion, yes, God loves everyone, so much so that He allows each child to choose on his own whether or not he will accept that love. Otherwise we would just be "little gods", right? And, if He allows us to choose whether we will accept His free gifts or not, then that means we have a free will,`right? Soooooo, if you have a free will, then quit dumping on God - its your choice. Name: Jk #18 Date: Tue Jun 13 19:19:37 1989 So if someone is killed in a flood, or tornado, or earthquake, or volcanic eruption, or thunderstorm....they got what they deserved; it was their "free will". I don't buy this "God loves everybody" when I can pick up a newspaper any day of the week and point out someone killed by an "Act of God". Name: The Radical #163 Date: Tue Jun 13 21:13:24 1989 Yes, God loves everybody, that's why millions starve each year, 6 million Jews and 20 million russians died by the hand of their gov't in WWII,etc.. Name: Thunder #152 Date: Tue Jun 13 22:13:55 1989 Someone back up the line infered that everyone was God's children. Thats not true. The only way you become a child of God is to go through the adoption process. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Tue Jun 13 23:44:30 1989 But..He created everyone and loves everyone and is all-forgiving and all that...what? You mean...he's picky?!? Obviously, your definition of free will is warped. You can a) worship this God d00d or b) burn in the fires of hell! Gee, what a choice. Real free will there. That's NOT free will. Free will is choosing whether or not to bow down and pledge allegiance to this egotistical deity. Because by your definition....there are two people. One murders a score of people without cause, goes to prison, and comes out a new man and says "Okay, I'm a good Xian" and means it. Another goes thru his whole life doing good deeds, hardly ever saying a contrary word to someone, but is an atheist or agnostic. But...the murderer goes to heaven and this other guy who decided not to worship God goes and "burns eternally in a lake of fire." Oh, I suppose that must be pointing out God's all-goodness....his all-loving and all-justiceness.. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Thu Jun 15 01:14:11 1989 As it was stated, a child can not accept a parents love, but that doesn't mean that the parent ever quits loving the child. Gods love is infinate, Uncompromising and UnConditional. As far as the adoption stuff goes, I realize it was a joke, and a cute one at that so there is no need to go into it, but i did like it! As far as dying people, helpless starving people etc. -- Perhaps in looking at the happenings of this planet and the lives we see seemingly needlessly extinguished, we are only looking at a small portion of the bigger picture. I don't claim to have all or any of the answers, but my faith leads me to believe that there is a season for every purpose under Heaven. A thought To Ponder: Since God, according to the Creation Story, created man in his own image, perhaps this means that the combination of all mankind is the amkeup of God. This would mean that God lives in everyone, and everyone lives in God. Sorta gives new meaning to the phrase "It takes all types." That thought was nothing more than that, and I have no desire to defend it or aregue against it. It sort of popped into my head and I thought this was a sensible spot to put it. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Thu Jun 15 12:04:42 1989 Adoption is NOT a joke. It's a spiritual reality. Anyone that bases their faith on the truths of the Bible recognises that one BECOMES a child of God when they conciously believe and trust in Jesus as Lord and God. This is what John 1:12 tells us, "For as many as RECEIVED Him (Jesus), He (God the Father) gave them the RIGHT to BECOME children of God. " "He (God) destined us to BE ADOPTED as His sons THROUGH Jesus in accordance with His will." - Ephesians 1:5 "For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave to fear again, but rather you received the Spirit of ADOPTION (sonship). And by HIM (Jesus) we cry 'Abba Father'." - Romans 8:15 We do not enter God's family until we trust in Christ as Lord. Jesus tells us in John 8:39-47 that those people who do not trust in God and worship him are children of Satan (by default) which puts them at odds with God. This is the state EVERY one is in at first until they are born of the Spirit of God by Faith in Jesus. This is the new or second birth Jesus taught in John 3:3-8. Fire Escape Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Thu Jun 15 13:30:15 1989 SO we can only be part of his great loving family if and only if we decide to worship him and his son...oh, that's wonderphul. Name: Thunder #152 Date: Thu Jun 15 15:13:04 1989 Lets assume for a moment that we are touring an adoption agency and interviewing the prospective adoptee's (just for fun). Now I ask you, would you adopt the kid who spits in your eye and says for you to shove. Probably not. Would you adopt the kid setting in the corner who is basicaly a really good kid but he tells you, as good as he is he will never accept your authority over him? Nah, I kinda doubt it. Would that make you an ogre? I would say that your refusal to accept those children for adoption would just make good sense. God has good sense. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Thu Jun 15 17:37:52 1989 If you were the kid and you saw the prospective parents drowning all the children in one ward because they didn't act the way they wanted them to, and then the people who survived the big flooding came to you and said what wonderphul people they were would YOU want them as parents? Also, what if you saw a good kid who just wouldn't come over to you of its own accord, is that a good reason to damn it to Hell? I think not... Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Thu Jun 15 22:27:11 1989 And, you just showed that god doesn't love everybody. If he did, he'd take in all 3 of the kids you used in the example... Or, you're in an adoption agency, and thes parents come, and you discover that they flooded one ward of people who didn't believe what they did, mauled the ones who didn't accept their authority with a few bears, and if they were firstborn, killed them off becaues their parents were assholes.... and you really want them as parents? Name: Ironman #120 Date: Thu Jun 15 22:42:35 1989 Gryphon, AGAIN with the Bears ! Man, we cleared that up eons ago! RE: the adoption agency. All three children in Thunders analogy WOULD be adopted. All they have to do is recognize the authority of the "Parent". God want's to adopt YOU: will you recognize his authority as "parent" ? Name: Jk #18 Date: Fri Jun 16 00:59:06 1989 No, no IM...you're contradicting yourself AGAIM. Your God is ALL-LOVING, eh? THAT means: Love with NO restrictions. Thus, out of LOVE, this God SHOULD forgive anyone anything they do, including "rejecting" him... And raining torrents of fire definitely does NOT fit into that picture... Name: Thunder #152 Date: Fri Jun 16 08:20:36 1989 God Will never take back the greatest gift of all that he gave us. The gift of free will. He does not condem us to hell. We do that ourselves. The children who refuse to accept the authority of the prospective parent (God) have selected another parent. The parent of 'self'. Now the bottom line here is we are not talking about little babes crying in their cribs at this adoption agency. We're talking about matured minds like you and I. We know very well which parent we are willing to put our selves in authority under. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Fri Jun 16 10:04:03 1989 Does it ever say specifically in the bible that people burn in hell? Just a thought that hit me, I remember Lucifer being cast in there but I don't remember anything about people being cast down there with them...just asking. What is Hell then? For our own good?! I doubt it. I could understand God sending people there TEMPORARILY *MAYBE* but forever?? When they might've had a different influence than you Christians did? I mean you've got to understand, not everyone gets treated really well by the church and not everyone has a great experience when they are introduced to it. God can't just be a strict mother that is unbending. Love is nothing like that...and if it is, I'd like to see what hate is like... Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun Jun 18 08:57:31 1989 1. So since we don't say God is Boss, we go to hell? Gee, what a nice fellow. Hey, dude, I don't think you should have complete authority over me. >THEN I DON'T LOVE YOU, MUAHAHAHAHA...< (said in earth-shaking voice..). If he's all-loving, it's unconditional love. If we spit in his face, he'd still love us, if we tried to take control, he'd still lorvwe us, if we were in a little plastic bubble he still would. This "My love's there, but if you don't accept my authority, well..." just doesn't cut it. 2. If god's such a nice guy, then why did he create Hell? He created everything, after all, and he's all-good and all-loving. If he's all-good and all-loving, why create a place where people are punished for eternity? Doesn't sound "good" OR "loving". Name: The Radical #163 Date: Sun Jun 18 20:01:27 1989 It seems to me that burning in Hell for eternity is a bit harsh for 70 years of insubordination. Kind and loveing?, if thats true I hardly think so. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Mon Jun 19 10:17:27 1989 Even better! A murdering, satanic, bad guy that tortures people for fun and hires himself out as an Assassin for Satan gets the same punishment as a nice, kind, gentle, benevolent, always-gives-money-to-everything, guy who happens to be agnostic. REAL Just, real kind, what love, eh?