Name: Roadtoad #165
Date: Tue Jun 06 21:12:00 1989

FE: If you really want to be spiritually enlightened, perhaps you should read 
the works of other religions. The Dammappada (sp?) certainly has some 
interesting views. To confine yourself to the teachings of one religious sect 
is self-limiting. The teachings of the Bible are fine, and some of them are 
quite interesting, but I don't see how someone could get a good view of the 
"Big Picture", to borrow a phrase, by reading one book and not considering the 
alternatives. If the only political book I ever read was Mein Kampf, then I 
might believe that tyrrany and fascism were the only ways to run a country. But
since I've been exposed to other political methods, I can look at all of them
and decide which I like best. With religion, there is even more freedom; you
don't have to choose between existing ones, you can decide to believe whatever
you want.


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Wed Jun 07 06:37:01 1989

Nice speech, Roadtoad..


Name: Ironman #120
Date: Wed Jun 07 23:00:56 1989

Nice speech, but you assume that FE doesn't have knowledge of these other
religions.

    As to Christianity, there are no parallels in other religions.
If you had gone to Buddha and asked him " Are you the son of Bramah ? ", 
he would have said, " My son, you are still in the vale of illusion ".

If you had gone to Socrates and asked, "Are you Zeus ?" , he would have 
laughed at you.

If you had gone to Mohammed and asked, "Are you Allah ?", he would have 
torn his clothes and then cut your head off.

If you had asked Confucius, "Are you the way to Heaven ?", he would have 
replied, " Remarks which are not in accordance with nature are in bad taste."

If you had asked Jesus Christ, "Are you God ?
", He DID reply, " YES " .

It is THIS which marks Christianity as different.

NO other religions moral/religious leader made such a claim as what Jesus 
claimed to be, MANY times in the Bible.
   It is, of course, up to YOU, as to whether you accept his claim.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Thu Jun 08 01:36:41 1989

Yes..but if you asked me if I was god and I DID say "YES" would you believe me?
I mean if everyone around me started telling you about the wonderful miracles I
had performed?


Name: Fire Escape #65
Date: Thu Jun 08 09:39:15 1989

Jesus versus world religions..  Reminds me of a story I heard once that seemed
to explain the major difference quite effectively. I'll share it with you.

  "A native of the interior China wanted to become a Christian but couldn't 
understand how Christianity was superior to Confucianism and Buddhism. He 
related his eventual understanding had arrived in the form of a dream. Here is 
what he said: "I dreamed last night, and now I understand. I dreamed that I 
had fallen into a deep pit where I lay helpless. Confucius came and said, 'Let 
me give you some advice my friend; if you can get out of your trouble, never 
get in it again.' and he left. Then Buddha came and said,'If you can climb up 
to where I can reach you, I will help you.' But he also left. Then Jesus came. 
He climbed down into the pit with me and picked me up and carried me out of 
it."  Jesus was different from the other religious teachers in that He was 
more than a teacher. Another story illustrates this better...

  "Count Zinzendorf, the founder of the Moravians, was brought to faith in an 
art gallery in Dusseldorf by the contemplation of a painting of Christ on the 
cross. It had this inscription: "I did this for you. What have you done for 
me?". This picture had been painted by an artist 300 years before. The story 
concerning it is this: "When the artist had finished his first sketch of the 
face of the Redeemer, he called in the landlady's little daughter and asked 
her who she thought it was. The girl looked at it and said, 'It is a good 
man.', the painter knowing he had failed, destroyed the first sketch and began 
another after praying for greater skill. When he completed the second sketch 
he called the girl and again asked her to tell him who it was. This time the 
girl said she thought it looked like a great sufferer. Again, knowing his 
failure, the painter destroyed the second sketch and began his third. When it 
was finished, he called the girl in a third time. When he asked her who she 
thought it was, she looked at it and kneeling down declared, "It is the Lord."

   What makes the coming of Jesus Christ meaningful to the world is this: NOT 
that a "good man" came, NOT that a "wise teacher" came, NOT that a "great 
sufferer" came, BUT that GOD came. He is as prophesied, Immanuel, which means 
"God with us". Only God could redeem mankind. Anything less would not be 
sufficient. Each man has his own sins to account for and as such, he is in no 
postion to redeem another. Jesus, who had no sin of his own, was able to bear 
the sins of all people, thus making a perfect atonment. No other good man, 
teacher or sufferer could do this for they were not God. This is why despite 
all the other religious options, Jesus is the best logical choice.
 
         Fire Escape


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Thu Jun 08 12:38:45 1989

Ironman:  Whazur poin? So out of all those people, Jesus was the only one with
an ego big enough to say that he was some god. Gee, that makes him just SO
special..


Name: The Doc #139
Date: Thu Jun 08 13:25:16 1989

Should I get involved in this one?!  I'm sure many of you know what I think of 
God and religion!


Name: Snappy #98
Date: Thu Jun 08 16:09:19 1989

The bad part about the picture..  Christ never asks what we have done for him. 
His love is not based on what we do or say or feel.  This painting is a
terrible misrepresentation of Christ.


Name: The Radical #163
Date: Thu Jun 08 18:56:50 1989

What's this BullS#$% about Christ atoning for our sins?!?  We can look at this
two ways:  By dying on the Cross Jesus absolved us of Original Sin.  Now the
Concept of original sin would seem to claim that we were born with it, the sin
of our father's being visited on us.  Now any God that would do that sounds
like a pretty poor excuse for a kind, loving God to me.  Or hrist absolved us
of All sin, which which means we're all going to heavan, which is hardly
likely.  Of those two options, the first looks more logical, and is in my
opinion morally reprehensible.
    Oh, btw, Charles Manson, Zoroaster, and Reverend Moon have also claimed 
godhood, proving that Jesus isn't the only person to have an inflated ego in 
history, and that's not even counting all the Wacko cults.


Name: Jk #18
Date: Thu Jun 08 19:53:01 1989

And answer me this...how does some guy nailed to a hunk of wood save all of 
humanity?  Is this God just into theatrics?  
Should I post a kw0te that I KNOW I've posted before, yet still sums up my 
opinion on this?  Why not...
     "The very basis of the Judeo-Christian code is injustice, the scapegoat 
system.  The scapegoat sacrifice runs all through the Old Testament, then it 
reaches its height in the New Testament with the notion of the Martyred 
Redeemer.  How can justice possibly be served by loading your sins onto 
another?  Whether it be a lamb having its throat cut ritually, or a Messiah 
Šnailed to a cross and 'dying for your sins.'  Somebody should tell all of 
Yahweh's followers, Jews and Christians, that there is no such thing as a free 
lunch."
In other words, YOU are responsible for your actions, and YOU must deal with 
the consequences.  To say that this God can absolve the man who murdered a 
hundred innocent people by hanging on a cross for a few hours is bullshit.  


Name: Slitter #130
Date: Thu Jun 08 20:20:49 1989

Both of you are partially right.  I think that God is forgiving.  I certainly 
hope so, because some of the best people I know have surely sinned.  On the 
other hand, you do have to be responsible for your own actions.  When I was in 
college, there were a bunch of people who had just become "reborn" during this 
one semester.  They somehow formed the opinion that God would make sure they 
passed all of their finals......none did any preparation.  Of course, every 
single one of them failed the semester.  I kindof like the Clampit's (Beverly 
Hillbillies) approach to religion...when Miss Jane or somebody asked them what 
denomination they were, they replied that they were "Golden Rulers"  

It occurs to me, somewhat late, that this post isn't making much sense.  Well, 
it's been one of those days.


Name: The Radical #163
Date: Thu Jun 08 23:40:01 1989

The Golden Rule is fine, I just don't like all the religious claptrap that comes
with it generally.


Name: Utwo #109
Date: Fri Jun 09 14:35:51 1989

This is annoying. Oh well, I'll wait till there's something new that I can add 
to.
 

Name: Snappy #98
Date: Fri Jun 09 15:19:53 1989

HOW I SEE IT, take it or leave it as you will...
Christ saved us from all sin, Past present and future.  It was not his dying 
on the cross that did it , but rather his onquering of death and rising 
gloriously on that Easter morning.  I think God forghives all sins, no matter 
how heavy light, often or whatever.  When i reach Heaven, I plan to say hi To 
Jusas Isocarot, Hitler, Gangus Kahn, John Lennon, as well as St. Peter, St. 
John, Roosevelt and my Grandfathers.  If your belief that god is different 
than mine, feel free to believe it, but please don't try to tell me that my 
interpretation is wrong.  For me, at least, nothing could be more right.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Fri Jun 09 16:31:29 1989

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, Snappy, just curious. If it's that way 
then what's the use in being good while we're down here?


Name: Jk #18
Date: Fri Jun 09 17:06:12 1989

And also tell ME this:  Why is it SO amazing that an omnipotent deity can 
"overcome death"?  He CREATED death, d00d...


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Fri Jun 09 23:55:51 1989

I mean, if I knwe I was going to be reborn anyway, and got tired of being a 
human being, hell, I'd go out with a flourish as well. Being crucified and 
claiming it was for the good of mankind would be a helluva flourish.


Name: Snappy #98
Date: Sun Jun 11 12:43:05 1989

Answers to questions on my beliefs:  What the purpose for us being here:   I
obviously cannot come up with the all encompassing answer for this.  Not being
God myself, I can only guess.  I would suppose that perhaps the experience of
life gives us the potential to better understand God in the Afterlife. Perhaps,
on the other hand, God thought the whole thing was a pretty "neat" idea...  If
a God is all loving and all forgiving, certainly he would let all of his
children live with him and offer the same blessings to each.  Some people say
that you have to ask for God's forgiveness in order to get it.   Hell, I
forgive people if they ask for it or not, I am sure that if I can do it, my
Creator is a little better at it, so that is why I am positive that all people,
no matter how they live their life, are let into Heaven.  I could quote a Bible
verse to support this, but it annoys me when FE does it so I will refrain.

Why is it so amazing that God can overcome death:   It isn't, he obviously has 
the powers.  The fact is, even though he had the powers, it doesn't mean he 
had to use them.  an anecdote to support this---   Several years ago, a 
Brither, my sister and I were coming from the Lake of the Ozarks after doing 
work on my brothers house there.  On the way, the car broke down.  Our parents 
drove out and picked us up and returned us to St. Louis.   ---  No it isn't 
amazing that they did it.  They had the car, they had the gas, they had the 
time.  Not really amazingf at all is it?   I'll tellyou one thing.  I am 
grateful to them for doing it.  Even if the act of them doing it was easy for 
them, that favor had a dramatic impact on the events of that day.
The same goes with God.  He used his powers to make things better for us.
 Anyway.....  I hope i don't come across as an overzealous Christian.  My goal 
Šis not to change minds, but rather to answer the questions posed on my 
philosophies.  I could be entirely wrong, or at least my philosophies could be 
wrong for other people besides myself.



Name: Morrissey #168
Date: Mon Jun 12 09:46:00 1989

Snappy, It's refreshing to find someone who believes in god and doesn't require
that I do...


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Mon Jun 12 12:27:05 1989

Snappy: Thank you..I loved your post. It's so rare to find someone who admits 
that hey, perhaps they ARE wrong.....

That's the kind of religion I like. They believe what they believe, and leto 
thers believe what THEY believe...


Name: Fire Escape #65
Date: Mon Jun 12 13:05:56 1989

Yes Snappy..that was a very nice post..  And I wished it was really true, but I
have to stick with BIBLICAL Christianity, not self styled. Even though your
version sounds easier and appeals to more people, I can't choose to differ from
what the Bible tells me about God. I won't quote verses at you since you don't
believe them anyway, I find it amusing (in a sad way) that you are willing to
quote from a book you despise to try and support your views when you don't
believe it is completely inspired, let alone accept what it has to say about
personal faith. 

    As A. W. Tozer said so many years ago: "TRUE FAITH requires that we 
believe everything God has said about Himself, but also that we believe 
everything He has said about US. Until we believe that we are as bad as God 
says we are, we can never believe that He will do for us what He says He will 
do. Right here is where popular religion breaks down."

   "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto 
salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Non-Jew."

  AS Snappy said, you don't have to accept Jesus if you don't want to, it's 
your choice. He/she thinks it will be great for you regardless of your choice, 
I don't. I don't know what could motivate Snappy to share his/her faith in 
light of his/her belief that faith doesn't matter. But I am COMPELLED to tell 
others because I don't like the idea of people condemning themselves. It might 
be selfish, but I certainly sleep alot better knowing that I at least spoke 
out to tell the world as I am commanded to do by Christ (Matt 28:19).

          The Ball's in your court, will you play or be disqualified?
                               Fire Escape