Name: Doomer #20 Date: Mon May 15 16:48:50 1989 Why is it that the christians use the Bible to back everything up except the issues where I'd -expect- and even WANT to see some? Fe: Could you back those Omni- statements up with bible quotes? Not that I'm doubting that you know what you're talking about, but still... Name: Utwo #109 Date: Mon May 15 17:31:39 1989 FE: I'm getting sick of this. You're full of Bullshit. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Mon May 15 23:16:55 1989 It seems to me, Christ rising on the third day had something to do with pardoning everyone of their sins. Seems to me that our all-know all-powerfull and all-present God is all-forgiving. If this isn't the God you Worship, then perhaps you are not worshiping the God of the Bible, but actually Satan, who knows no forgiveness and love. Seems as if you are backing up Greek with his "Satan Rulez" kick. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Tue May 16 15:16:34 1989 FE: Listen to what you just said: "...He has revealed to us through the Prophetó .." etc etc. So, you believe him because he told you so. Wow. If I tell you that I'm omnipotent and omnipresent, does that make ME all-powerful? Noo... The only thing you have to prove it is some demented ramblings of a prophet.. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Wed May 17 12:08:15 1989 I rely on the writtings of the Bible because they are credible. Not only have they miraculously transformed my life and the lives of countless thousands throughout history, but they have also accurately prophesied the entire history and future of Israel. The prophesies concerning the Messiah Jesus are too accurate to dismiss as mere coincidence. It is the fulfillment of many prophecies that has generated my faith in the credibitity and inspiriation of the Bible. If anyone is interested in Bible Prophecy concerning Jesus, Mail me and I will send you quite a few astounding prophecies and their fulfilments. On the subject of the "omni's" of God (per Doomer's request) here are some prominent text references for these foundational attributes of God: Omincience (All Knowing):Hebrews 4:13, 1st John 3:20, Luke 16:15, Romans 8:27 Matthew 6:8, Psalm 44:21.. Omnipresent (ever Present): Psalm 139:1-12; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:23-24; Acts 17:24-28 Omnipotent: (All Powerful): 1st Chronicles 29:12; Job 42:2; Isaiah 43:13; Mark 14:36; Matthew 19:26; Luke 1:37; Rev 19:6. 2nd Thessalonians 1:5-10: "All this is evidence that God's judgement is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of His kingdom for which you suffer. God is just: He will trouble those who trouble you and give relief to those who are troubled. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not trust the gospel of Jesus..on the day He comes..to be glorified among all those who HAVE BELIEVED." Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Wed May 17 20:57:33 1989 1. The prophecies of the future are correct. Prove it. You learn time travel lately? 2. Nostradamus predicted many things, amongst them the rise of Hitler and the assassination of somebody (i forget). So what, psychic ability does not an omniscient deity make. 3. Once again, supposedly the author of the book tells us he's all-powerful and all-loving. What do you think he's going to say? "I've got this big weakness here, I only know things in the field of genetics, and I hate so-and-so religions." ???? Name: Snappy #98 Date: Wed May 17 23:41:56 1989 If he forgives all then he cannot condemn anyone. They are mutually exclusive. If the Bible predicts both then it too is contradictory. If a weatherman said "It is going to rain tommorrow." and then say "It is not going to rain tommorow." He will always be right. You shouldn't be a prisoner to that which sets you free. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Thu May 18 19:42:17 1989 No it's more like. "There isn't going to be anymore bad weather for all of eternity, however, tommorow there's going to be a hurricane..." FE: I thought God frowned upon those who used psychic powers to fortell the future even those, as you said a while back, that are doing it for just causes...Hmmmmm, another double standard perhaps? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Thu May 18 21:40:41 1989 No, but *everything* that isn't a god-inspired power is evil. Gee, that makes plenty of sense. Another example of "Well, I wrote it, so wht the hell.." Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Fri May 19 11:27:30 1989 Forgivness is AVAILABLE to all people TRUE. But they have to ACCEPT it in order to HAVE it. It's like this kinda: If I would go out into the world and buy every person on the face of the earth a ticket to see Ghostbusters II, then they could go to the movie FREE, on the ticket I bought for them. But inorder to get into see the show, they must accept this GIFT (the ticket I bought for them) and enter into the theater. They can't buy their own ticket because they are far too expensive and no one could ever earn enough to pay for one. And they can't get a ticket from someone else because I bought ALL the tickets in existence. So the ONLY way they are going to get into see the movie is ONLY IF they RECEIVE FREELY from me the ticket (gift) I offer them. It is a concious and deliberate step on their part to admit they NEED a ticket and realize that I have bought theirs for them PERSONALLY. This is how salvation and forgivness are. Forgivness and Salvation are expensive gifts that God bought and paid for with His Son's own blood. They are freely available to everyone WHO WILL RECEIVE them. Just as you could easily reject the ticket I bought for you and decide not to go see Ghostbusters II, the person can just as easily reject God's gift of Salvation and forgivness and thus he would not HAVE it. WHY? Because He didn't ACCEPT it! "To ALL WHO RECEIVED Him (Jesus), to those WHO TRUSTED in His Name, He GAVE them the RIGHT to BECOME children of GOD." -John 1:12 Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri May 19 14:13:42 1989 It's more like this.. A certain person with delusions of granduer goes to the movie theater, say Halls Ferry 12. They buy all the tickets for one of the shows, let's say Holy Ghostbusters II. Then, they proceed to spread propaganda and lotsa horrible things about the other 11 shows, without allowing them to reply, and if they even try to, they are denounced as evil pagan heathenistic skum of the earth. So this person with all the tickets to the one supposedly "all-good" show, spreads them around--on one condition. That you bow down and worship the director and declare him your only ruler and all that. He puts out a book that you must believe implicitly in, and to further his own interests, it mentions his all-goodness, all-forgivingness, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Sat May 20 19:02:33 1989 How it really works.. God's gift is like rain. You don't have to ask for it, and you cannot avoid it even if you have an umbrella. It gets everybody. Why would God, who obviously must realize that we are not perfect and wise, expect anything but imperfection and foolishness from us? If a carpenter builds a shitty table, and then blames the table for having a tendancy to fall over, the carpenter is an idiot. So, if the carpenter either understands the limitations of his creation, or helps to improve upon the creation, he is like the God I worship. The way you describe God is like the idiot carpenter. Do you think God is that big of an idiot? Sounds that way. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Sat May 20 21:12:48 1989 NO! As much as I'd -like- to believe that, Snappy, THAT doesn't sound right either. I mean, there's got to be SOMETHING better about donating money rather than exterminating all the poor people! I mean, it would hardly pay to be good, would it? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sat May 20 22:06:51 1989 Actually.. Snappy's example makes tremendous sense to me....this dude supposedly creates us, knowing we're imperfect, then blames us for being imperfect and absolves himself of responsibility. Wait a sec.. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Sun May 21 14:29:08 1989 But God didn't create us imperfect... that was our own choice. And He has every right to stand by His initial conditions. If He initially created us perfect (like the Bible says He did) and He is perfect (Like the Bible says he is) then it it unfair then that his conditions for a relationship hinge upon perfection (like the Bible says it does) ? NO. It is WE who have changed, and since we knew what God's nature was when we changed, the responsibility for that change is completely ours. God can't change his nature from perfect to imperfect, so in order for us to have a relationship with a perfect God, it is WE who muct change. And since that change is beyond us, God offers an easy way to measure up, How hard is that? It's certainly not unfair. That rates as very kind in my book. I think it would be great if God could have fellowship with all people regardless of their choice, but God respects our choices, and since He does, he allows us to make them. If their was no choice involved with salvation, then where would our freedom be? What would be the point in living? This is why the God of the Bible requires us to come to Him by our own choice. Choice is essential in knowing God. The choice is to trust or to reject, real hard I know.. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Sun May 21 19:14:08 1989 If God created us with perfection, then how could it be that we became imperfect on our own? If we were perfect, we would have been incapable of making a choice that was imperfect. Therefore, by your own logic, we are still perfect, so God accepts us in the perfect form in which we all are. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun May 21 20:30:19 1989 You defeat your own argument, FE. If we were created perfect, then we could never make an imperfect decision or argument or deed....yet somehow we supposedly did. Right. Thus, if you stick by that, it follows the god, being a perfect being, can also do imperfect things. And, what's this? You admit that God doesn't love everybody and only admits a few people in? But wait....that's funny. That means our whole purpose in life is to worship him his way and no other way. Pretty ignorant to me... Name: Doomer #20 Date: Mon May 22 17:44:13 1989 Say, Toyota. They make a car which they SAY is perfect yet a few years later they have to recall it, eh? Fe: Yes, but God (According to your statements) created us knowing that we would BECOME imperfect. Go figure. Why didn't he just change a few things in His creation plan so that WE don't have to pay for those human traits? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Tue May 23 06:34:39 1989 he's the one you say created us imperfect® oh, so it's our fault that we have a design fault? 49/50: That's not what FE said. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Tue May 23 09:20:38 1989 God created us perfect, ie, free from sin. He gave us free will. WE make our own free choices in life. As evidenced by the discussions in the last 30 or 40 posts. Some obviously are choosing one path® Others choose another. No one can claim ignorance of the others' positions, however. So, as FE mentioned, at the end of the road no one can say " But nobody TOLD me ! ". You may believe that it makes no difference. That is your CHOICE to make. I believe differently. That is my choice to make. The God I worship tells me/us/Christians that we are not to remain silent® So that NO ONE can say " But nobody TOLD me ". Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Tue May 23 11:30:50 1989 That's right Ironman.. Free will demands that the possibility to make WRONG decisions be present. If there was no way for you to choose wrongly as you say God SHOULD have made us, then it would have resulted in us not having any free will to choose. And like we have said many times, How much more fulfilling is it to have someone CHOOSE to obey and love you when you know they could do otherwise than to have a toy robot that you can program to do and feel only what is acceptable and good. God wants free agents to CHOOSE Him, not robots who have NO CHOICE in the matter. So we were created Perfect in that we didn't HAVE to do evil, but also with FREE WILL so we could choose evil. God could choose to do evil having a free will of His own, but He won't because it is contrary to His very holy nature. We are not little "gods" so the issue of free will always equalling evil doesn't apply to God. It's not a similar situation. God does love everyone as He sent His Son to die for EVERYONE, so that EVERYONE who trusts in Him should not perish in Hell but by their own choice, have eternal life in Christ. It's always been up to us. God doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves by rejecting His love and mercy. Fire Escape