Name: Ironman #120 Date: Mon Apr 17 09:19:07 1989 God created beings with a FREE will. God created GOOD. God gave humans instructions, saying " Do this, and this will be good ". Man, however, phucked up the plan. He decided, " Well, I'm smart, so I think that I don't want to follow the plan which God created ". No offense, folks, but the logic around here has been the same time of self-justification that I would hear from a young child who, when told not to play in the street, crys when he goes in the street and gets hit by a car. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Mon Apr 17 12:00:22 1989 God only crates good things. Good things cannot be evil. Man is evil. hmmmm doesn't work.... Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Mon Apr 17 14:57:55 1989 Ironman: At least our logic has basis in *fact*. God is omnipotent. God created the universe and everything in it. God created Good. Now, if only good exists since he's such a jolly good fellow, then... how the hell could his creations learn about evil? It had to be tehre SOMEWHERE. And if it was THERE, GOD must have CREATED it. Look: He created something that had thoughts of rebellion (wow...a damn apple. Really nice guy..). He created something that had thoughts of evil, supposedly. Now, if god created everything, and he made everything good, then that sould be impossible. obviously he had to create the essence of evil, the temptation of it, the ghost of evil...or are you saying that something else created it? Funny, he's omnipotent.... And if he's all-powerful he is all-evil and all-good. That alone defeats your whole argument. Name: Utwo #109 Date: Mon Apr 17 15:23:43 1989 GRYPHON: GENESIS (Darn cap locks) was written like in the 6th century BC and the apple is just some writers metaphore or similie. It's funny last night some guy was on talking about how to have a good marriage and he makes some reference to the Bible as being the first place where marriage appeared than he goes to the New Tesûßtament for an example. You think he would try to be a little closer by taking the an example from the Old Testament even though I don't think that's where marriage idea was first invented. 20/50: .. Name: Jk #18 Date: Tue Apr 18 20:20:25 1989 Let's take this whole deal of "sin". First rule: Quit defining Evil from a Christian point of view. These people weren't Christian, and your moral value (s) don't apply, nor do the values of 20th century America. I think this human sacrifice (which, incidentally, the Christians have just CLAIMED with NO proof whatsoever. Must be in the Bible somewhere, huh?) was TOTALLY justified. Times and cultures make the morality. Human sacrifice was moral and good, and now times have changed. I leave it at that. In 200 years, our descendants will call us vermin for polluting the environment, and WHY didn't we just invent the clean nuclear reactor instead of leaving behind a half-dead world? Name: Doomer #20 Date: Tue Apr 18 21:22:38 1989 In the immortal words...of Steven Adler: Sounds like bullshit to me. (GnR drummer, what did you expect?) So you're saying that God actually CONDONES human sacrifice?? Come on, there had to be more to it than "Oh, SOMEONE had to die to atone for our sins." BULLSHIT. JESUS was GOD, and GOD is OMNIPOTENT and ALL powerful so he doesn't NEED to sacrifice HIMSELF in order to forgive someone ELSE!! The only way you can logically and HISTORICALLY say what you just said is if you say that the Jews were sacrificing Jesus in order to have Him take their sins, which I GARUNTEE you was not the case! Actually, if you want to say that God is omnipotent, He commited suicide, when he came down here... Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Thu Apr 20 01:42:30 1989 "Roughly two thousand years after a man was nailed to a tree..And so forth. I think that the main problem (as folks have said) is that we have two views: Christain and, ah, skeptical. The Christians all want to talk from their point of view (i.e. The Bible is "The Word") and the skeptics say, in essence, "Bullshit." Now just a word to the Christians, unless skeptics are conquered on their own ground, you will never win the argument (read, "save them"). So let's try and work on this, eh? Just if you don't know what I mean, take that stuff about twenty posts back about the conscience being inscribed in the heart, bullshit. As I believe JK said, it's acculturation. Take Japan (those heathen bastards), in times of old, their conscience lied on totally different lines with that of the Christians'. [Examples: suicide, honor, etc.] So, let's all get our bases straight, OK? Thanx. Name: Snappy #98 Date: Thu Apr 20 17:02:35 1989 Jesus Dying did nothing for our sins.. It was his glorious ressurrection on the third day that did the trick. When he rose he did to satan what Kirk Gibson did the the Oakland A's in the one game of the World Series last year. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Thu Apr 20 18:34:55 1989 In essence his 'Crucifixion' had absolutely nothing at all to do with it. He could've been stoned (Either kind, heh) or died of natural causes. BUT, what exactly did his Ressurection do for us except to show us that God did in fact walk among us? Nothing that -I- can see... Name: Jk #18 Date: Thu Apr 20 20:53:45 1989 Exactly. Big phuckin' deal that this GOD can do things a mortal can't. He was supposed to rain fire down on cities and appear as a flaming cloud in the Old Testament...why didn't THAT "forgive everybody's sins"? This is really, REALLY lame guys... Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Thu Apr 20 22:02:33 1989 Funny... "God is the only perfect being, so that's why his son had to die for our sins." (paraphrase) That sentence states that a) God is perfect, nothing else in existance is. b) he technically killed his son. c) Jesus was imperfect. NOw, if an imperfect being died for us....whoa, wait a sec. Imperfect being? That means vulnerable to "sin", right? After all, *we're* imperfect. If we can't save ourselves....then how can another imperfect being save us? Funny.. Name: Gauntlet #10 Date: Fri Apr 21 20:54:02 1989 QWIF, the reason God sent his son was to show us his love for us... John 3:16 (So I know the quote.. (err... "verse" that is..) Name: Ironman #120 Date: Sat Apr 22 03:26:12 1989 Well, Headless Chicken, you are W R O N G. Sorry, but it's just that simple. "unless skeptics are conquered on their own ground, you will never win them over ( 'save them' )...."® Sorry, but that is wrong. We will never be able to "prove" to you anything. Period. ALL, and I will repeat that, ALL we can do is "plant the seed". It's up to the Holy Spirit and YOUR, repeat, Y O U R willingness to listen that will win them over. PERIOD. GRYPHON: GOD, perfect, and the Son, also perfect , are ONE and the SAME. Your logic was flawed. JK: "....this is really, REALLY lame, guys ". Yes, I'm afraid that your post did fit into that category. I normally expect, and receive , more from your posts. Your "confession" , was rather remarkable in it openess, though. DOOMER: No, he could NOT have just been stoned, hanged, etc. The Old Testament prophesied that the Messiah would be "hung on a tree" and , as Jesus himself said, the Old Testament prophesies would have to A L L, repeat A L Ì be fulfilled. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sat Apr 22 14:02:16 1989 That was really, really Lame, Ironman. Wow! It's in the Bible! It must be absolutely, no question, TRUE! Gimme a phukn break. Prove it, put some facts behind your words. Wow. Gaunt quotes the bible. That means a *whole* helluva lot to me.... PROVE IT! use evidence! Ironman says "You're wrong." How? You dont know you're right....yet you say you are. It's amazing at the naivete shown by some of you.. (and I notice that you never ever seem to find a reply to the umpteen thousand reasons why this "all-powerful" "all-good" "all-loving" being can't exist..) Name: Warrior Of The Son #116 Date: Sat Apr 22 18:31:45 1989 Many people here cant put there faith into something unless they see it for themselves. But that will not happen. God isnt going to appear to you, so you can see him it wont happen(well it could but I SERIOUSLY doubt it). You have to have faith though. Just cause you cant see doesnt meen it isnt there. I have a saying thats up in my house on the wall. I am going to print it for you. It was by Saint Augustine. Here it goes. Faith is to believe what we do not see; and the reward of this faith is to see what we believe. We may not see now. But I know I will see someday thats how I keep my faith. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Sat Apr 22 19:43:24 1989 That about says it all, WOS. And Gryphon, I KNOW I'm right. Sorry. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Sun Apr 23 00:19:30 1989 Ironman, man, that post just sucked big time. Talk about stooping to A) Immaturity B) Idiocy C) Ignorance and D) Total skwidliness! Come on! Way to 'save' me there, d00d. "I'm right you're wrong NYAH!!!" I'm disappointed, this from the dude who pisses everyone off by posting "Lets stay calm and mature" posts... See what I mean? Hypocrisy. Everywhere.' Name: Jk #18 Date: Sun Apr 23 01:11:56 1989 How very true...as far as civility on my part; it lasts as long as I'm in a good mood. And IM, you're very wrong...MY post was EXCELLENT. I posed the question: "What in the HELL did some guy getting nailed to a chunk of wood have to do with Evil acts performed by humanity?" Well? What DID it have to do? One "God" was crucified, and everybody got a clean slate. So, if we maybe crucify a million heathens, it will have the same effect? Blood and souls for my Lord God...(apologies to M. Moorcock). Seems to me if this God of yours wanted to forgive "his people", he could have done it in a somewhat more positive way...like saying "You're forgiven". Omnipotent beings can do that, you see... The idea of having "his people" commit a murder in order to save their souls points out just how ridiculous this whole scapegoat concept is. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun Apr 23 16:21:37 1989 Wos: I Know God isn't going to appear to me, 'cuz he doesn't exist. Ironman: So where's your rock-solif proof? A book? Wow..*that* persuades me. I liked Jk's post.. Name: Doomer #20 Date: Sun Apr 23 19:30:17 1989 Hey, being the helpful guy that I am... I've got some books too, Gryph. Wanna worship a few of 'em? Name: Ironman #120 Date: Sun Apr 23 21:38:50 1989 Let's all stay calm and mature . Name: Doomer #20 Date: Sun Apr 23 22:43:48 1989 A little late for YOU don't you think? Or was that a cruel joke stated in a failing attempt to piss me off, Ironmoo? Name: Utwo #109 Date: Mon Apr 24 16:36:04 1989 WoS: That certainly was an enRICHing post. IM: Did you say the prophecies said the Messaih would be hung to a tree? I thought he was nailed. Oh well, that's the Bible full of contradictions. Name: Ironman #120 Date: Mon Apr 24 17:11:05 1989 He was nailed. In order to hang him to a tree, he had to be nailed. The Bible is full of apparent contradictions. These apparent contradictions clear up, though, on closer inspection. I didn't think it was a cruel joke, Doom, but it wouldn't be the first time my taste was wrong. :'P Note I said my TASTE ... !