Name: Headless Chicken #6
Date: Sat Apr 08 23:13:56 1989

"Turn the other cheek," & "Eye for an eye":  I don't think that I like
Ironman's answer that "it was a rough time and God was just trying to settle
them down.  That doesn't quite jibe because I could say that all that stuff
about "Thou shalt not commit adultry" was just to settle people down.  I mean,
hell, now that's OK.

See, that sort of answer just won't work.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Sun Apr 09 12:18:53 1989

HC: I see what you mean...
Utwo: If you dial 1170 or *70 it will temporarily turn off your call waiting. 
Ok, if God told ONE person it seems to me that it is most likely that the d00d 
probably made it up.  Period.



Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Fri Apr 07 20:21:02 1989

I don't know. Jk, Doom, all, *am* I a light? I thought I was rather bright, 
and in s ome areas I shine...I mean, I'm the father of bad puns. Or is that 
the sun of bad puns..


Name: Snappy #98
Date: Sat Apr 08 16:21:34 1989

Last time I lit up I blew a fuse.

The bible may be very important to you, and that is fine.  Quit cramming it 
down my throat® Christ is what is the intergral part of my heart, not a book 
that is classified as fiction.  (don't argue on this one, it is due to it's 
contradictions and the fact that it is told by many points of veiw.)

It is fine that the bible makes you happy and content.  I am happy that you 
found something that can do it for you.  Just because it works for you please 
don't force it on everybody else.  --Pray in a closet and shut the door.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Sat Apr 08 20:33:34 1989

There ya go..  There is a very fine line between 'Preaching' and being an
'Asshole Hypocritical >BIBLE CHANGING< (ahem) Jerk'.  


Name:The Silver Sword #68 
Date: Tue Apr 11 19:31:54 1989

HEY! WHY WOULD ANYONE WHO IS SANE want to follow the path given by what Fire
Escape has said about god commanding Jews to kill those Canaanites?  I  mean,
it SAYS THAT GOD is FORGIVING!  If so, then why would he punish us for not
following him?  Shouldn't he forgive us for that?  I mean, if not, then he
lied...or mebbe the 'bible writers' were the press of the time and put words
in his mouth>!?!?!??


Name: Mr. Ed
Date: >UNKNOWN<

That is a tough one and this is what I (personal opinion) think:
God created us to be intelligent creatures that can love and be loved.  Besides
God loving us and us loving Him (hopefully), we also love each other.
When someone does us wrong and says that they're sorry, don't we usually not 
think twice about forgiving them?   But, and this is a big BUT, if they never 
show any sorryness (is that a word?), aren't we more apt to hold a grudge?

I think this how God works in forgiving people.  I think He will freely forgive
anyone for anything as long as they are truly sorry for doing it.  This, of 
course, is hard.  This includes trying not to do wrong again as well as paying 
retribution when applicible.

That's just the way I think about it.   - Mr. ED


Name: Warrior Of The Son #116
Date: Tue Apr 11 22:01:36 1989

Took the words right out of my mouth  Mr Ed.  YOu cant get forgiveness unless
you ask for it, and truly want it.


Name: Jk #18
Date: Tue Apr 11 22:41:20 1989

But what HUMAN claims to be ALL-LOVING, ALL-FORGIVING?  What you're talking 
about is a supposedly OMNIPOTENT God, more powerful and vast than humans can 
imagine.  If he "holds a grudge", I can't see how that makes him any better 
than a spoiled little rich boy...he's on the top of the ladder, but that 
doesn't make him a better person.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Wed Apr 12 00:07:06 1989

The Cannanites didn't KNOW what they were doing was wrong, tho, so why should 
they WANT to beg forgiveness? Just 'cause a bunch of Jerks (Ooops, I meant 
'Jews') come out of the desert and tell 'em they're sinning? Come ON! If I 
came into your house and said that modeming was blasphemous and that I'd kill 
you and take your house if you didn't stop it, how would YOU take it?


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Wed Apr 12 06:34:14 1989

Oh please..  Nice description of a meglomaniac, dude..... "I'm the ultimate
power, and if *you* don't ASK ME for forgiveness, well hey, ignore the fact
that I profess I'm all-forgiving and all-loving, you're phuked, you won't be
forgiven.."

If he's all-forgiving, that means no conditions. No ifs, ands, or buts about 
it...he'll forgive you. None of this "Well, you hafta ask him" BS.


Name: Fire Escape #65
Date: Wed Apr 12 12:57:59 1989

But the Canaanites DID know... they were doing wrong. For one thing, the Basic
Law is written in everyone's heart, this is what we casually call our
Conscience. We know that it is not right to kill other human beings, the
Canaanites were most infamous for their live Baby sacrifices, and God warned
them plenty of times that this was evil. 

  Sure God DESIRES to forgive us but since he is also just, he can't just 
waive our sins until adequate payment has been made for them. Would a judge be 
just if it just let a murder waltz out of the court, even if that Murderer was 
"really sorry"? Sin has a price, no matter how sorry we are, that is why God 
chose a way to "pick up the debt for us on our behalf", but the catch is: The 
Forgivness isn't ours to claim unless we ALSO accept the payment made by God 
which affords us that. This is the ultimately loving cool thing God did, Yeah, 
He could have required us (and justly so) to pay for our own shortcommings and 
rebellion, but He didn't. You still can if you want to try (good luck!), but a 
sensible person would not kick a gift horse in the mouth, so to speak. God 
Offers reconciliation, justification, forgivness and abundant life to all who 
will just RECEIVE the Free gift through surrendering their hearts and lives to 
His Son, what's the big deal?  The way I see it, one would be insane to turn 
their backs on such a great offer. I guess it depends on how you look at it.
 

Name: Utwo #109
Date: Tue Apr 11 18:25:15 1989

FE's Post: I skimed it but when I did the loose parts I picked made it sound
like a religious chant similar to "Sticks and stones...".
 
It's funny.  Today in religion class the lesson book says that in creation 
there are about 5 basic truths.  The first 2 arn't too big of deal.  The next 
one says that God made everything.  The fourth says that everything God made 
was good.  Then the last says that evil had to come from some other place 
since everything God made was good.  DO you see a flaw in that?  I certainly 
do.  
 
If God makes everything and everything he makes is good than how can there be 
evil.  That's kinda contradictrary (sp?).
 

Name: Mr. Ed #1
Date: Tue Apr 11 20:56:55 1989

I'm confused too. See Utwo's post above. Anyone care to explain?


Name: Jk #18
Date: Tue Apr 11 22:46:47 1989

Hmmm...somebody besides me wonders that too; of course, most Christians will 
attribute it to "Lucifer's free will, and His Choice to be Evil".  Excuse me, 
but if God created Lucifer, that means God decided what knowledge Lucifer 
possesed.  For him to give FREE CHOICE to a being, he had to HAVE KNOWLEDGE of 
the alternatives...Good and Evil.  Thus, where does evil come from?  There is 
ONLY ONE Creator...God created everything, right?  Following that, God MUST 
have created Evil.

See what I'm saying?  Christians say God existed before everything else, 
because everything else is His Creation.  THEREFORE, God created Evil.  If you 
say that's not so, then you are, by default, saying that Evil existed before 
God created "everything".  From THAT, you get two more possibilites: that God 
has Evil as an inherent part of himself, or that there are other beings equal 
to God who are Evil® Follow that?  


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Wed Apr 12 06:40:04 1989

I've said that lotsa time. God created everything; God created Lucifer; 
Lucifer was Evil; thus God created Evil® Nice guy.


Name: Fire Escape #65
Date: Wed Apr 12 13:14:37 1989

Evil and it's origin:
  Tis true that God created all things, including the angelic beings and the 
present universe.  But you will notice that God creates sentient beings with 
freedom to choose their beliefs and actions, this is the spiritual mark of a 
creation that possesses a spirit and soul. These "things" in themselves are 
GOOD, and can never be "bad"..God doesn't create puppets or robots, where 
would be the joy in that? The joy on God's part comes from knowing the "good" 
creations have the POTENTIAL to rebel against their creator (thus becoming 
"bad") but instead Choose to follow Him. If Angels and Men were not allowed to 
choose their course, then their would have never been any "sin" (Sin is 
basically any rebellion against the Authority of God). Since Sin in itself is 
an act of thought, attitude and action, it can be "created" by the entity that 
chooses it. Therefore, God does NOT Create Sin, ever...But his free willed 
creations sometimes do, and in the case of Man, it is something that is 
perpetuated because imperfect (sinners) parents, can not raise perfect 
Children in an imperfect world (which is imperfect ONLY because of the 
Imperfect inhabitants).

  So in the end, we see, a completely perfect God who can only create Good, 
and that when he created Man and Angel (an autonomous being) he willingly 
allowed those beings to create sin if they wanted to, and both Man and Angel 
understood the consequences and chose to make it anyway. So the blame for Evil 
is completely upon Man and Angel, not God. He is bigger than all our evil and 
could eliminate it whenever he pleased, but that time has not yet been 
fulfilled.
                 Fire Escape

Name: Utwo #109
Date: Wed Apr 12 15:02:06 1989

FE: How can someone have a conscience about something they have been taught is
ok. It is very difficult and it would take many generations in that rime
realize that baby killing is wrong. 
 

Name: Jk #18
Date: Wed Apr 12 16:12:26 1989

FE, ever heard of the word "acculturation"?  It means that the culture you 
live in contributes to the formation of your values.  If, as you say, human 
sacrifice was an accpeted part of that culture, why would you expect the 
people living WITHIN that culture to consider it "wrong"?  

You have to remember these people didn't have a 20th century American mindset. 
Many of them never moved further than 12 blocks from the place they were born 
for their ENTIRE lives.  There was no global communication, no higher 
education, no science.  The GODS (plural) ruled the world, brought the rains, 
struck down the people with plagues.  Human sacrifice was a part of appeasing 
the gods...the old Spock routine: "The need of the many outweighs the need of 
the few, or the one".  These people BELIEVED, heart and soul, that THEIR 
religion was true, that the Jewish god was falså and that they were doing the 
RIGHT thing.  You cana judge these people just like your god did, but put 
yourself in their position...a band of foreigners (folks were xenophobic in 
those days) walks up to you and preaches that their god doesn't like your 
centuries-old lifetyle.  They tell you to change or die.  What do you do?  
You tell 'em to phuck off.  

An OMNIPOTENT, FORGIVING, and UNDERSTANDING God would KNOW these peoples' 
mindset...after all, omnipotence means the best at everything, including 
psychology.  There is no excuse.


Name: Gryphon #21
Date: Thu Apr 13 06:30:26 1989

That's "OMNIPOTENT, FORGIVING, UNDERSTANDING, and ALL-GOOD", for that matter. 
The Canaanites saw nothing wrong with what they were doing..hell, they lived 
like that for ages on end. If some people came and told you to change what you 
were doing or "go to hell, you heathens", if I were the C's I'd laugh 
too....but once again in a startling (not really) show of immaturity, "You 
won't listen to ME?!?  Die, mortal skum!"...

Plus, by FE's description, God is now "all-just" instead of "all-forgiving". 
You can't be both...


Name: Snappy #98
Date: Thu Apr 13 14:38:46 1989

I noticed that "Change" in definitions too.  The problem with all the
definitions and changing thereof is that in defining things from the bible, we
are applying ethnicentricity to works which have had a different
ethnicentricity already applied.  In short  it is like translating something in
ascii with an ebcdic translator and then again with an ANSI standard.  In the
end there may be similarities to the original, but most of the meaning is
garbled.


Name: Doomer #20
Date: Fri Apr 14 17:31:01 1989

Good Job...exactly what -I- was going to say.  Fe: As a side point, there is a
mentaal disease that makes people lose/never have a 'concience' so to
speak...can't remember the name, tho.  You are assuming that the Canaanites
felt just as you do now.  They didn't.  If they all felt so bad about it, I'm
sure they wouldn't do it.  How about the Jews? Slitting a poor, defenseless
goat's throat for their god, tell me YOU wouldn't feel remorse to hear a poor
lamb crying in pain and spiting up blood as it bled to death.  And how about
the Hebrew tradition of a 'scapegoat'? Real nice thing to do to a living
thing.  God shoulda damned them all to eternal HELL for treating animals like
that! But He didn't.  Why? Because THAT was THEN and THIS is NOW.  THEY didn't
feel remorse for treating them cruelly because it was a given of their
culture.  They had been 'conditioned' to take that for granted.  (Good book
about this kind of thing is Brave New World by Aldous Huxely, I'm thinking of
posting some quotes from that book...)