February 1989 to September 1989 on ED'S BARN BBS. Compiled and condensed by Fire Escape, January 1995. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Fred Witsl #54 Date: Mon Feb 20 23:33:47 1989 I've been here a while now, and guess its okay to say something and have everyone hate me like the other boards (it seems after I post on a religion board I'm shunned like the plague, oh well...). FE: I see your point and am not against it. It seems people don't like others talking about something they think is silly or have no intention of believing. I believe in God, whether He is your god or not, I don't know. (As in the god you believe in, not the one true GOD...) Fundamentally, everyone who believes in one god, believes in the same god; just a few differences of opinion. (ie. all truth is in the Bible, God hates sinners...whatever else you can think of) My opinion is that it is better to believe in something that is wrong, than in NOTHING.If you know the answer to life, let me know. Not all of that is to FE, kind of forgot what I was writting about and who to, oh well... Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Tue Feb 21 02:44:35 1989 What if you believe in not believing? Then are you a hypocrite? Or are you God? It can work both ways, I suppose. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Wed Feb 22 14:09:08 1989 is illogical. And if your religious zeal is directed into the world view (philosophy) of not believeing in anything, then you have already defeated yourself. Everyone believes in something, as I think it is man's nature to be "spiritual" or more generally "meta-physical", we are intrigued by the unexplainable and we all desire to experience that transcendence that no one can really describe. If this need exists as it seems to, then doesn't this necessitate the spiritual aspect of humanity? Why would be have a need to experience that which doesn't exist? It makes no sence. So by simple deduction we must affirm that there is something beyond us, something transcendent. If we can agree on this, then the only argument lies in what this transcendence really is and if it is sentient, what it's attributes are. I tend to disagree that all who believe in "one god" believe in the same one. If God was the god of everyone's faith then why does he allow teachings about His nature and will that are in obvious contradiction to one another? For example, the god of Islam, Allah says that those who kill their enemies in the name of Allah are gaurenteed eternal life, this is the Jihad. While the God of the Bible (Christian God) says that we should forgive our enemies and that no murderer will ever inherit the kingdom of heaven. There is no way that they "gods" could actually be the same one, not with that kind of contradiction. I think man's freedom to choose has resulted in many false religions, and that God is striving to unite all people in his Son. This makes more sence to me® Fire Escape Name: The Silver Sword #68 Date: Wed Feb 22 14:44:35 1989 Well, FE, couldn't people who 'don't believe in believing' MEAN that they don't believe in anything, which would not require beliefs, because they don't BELIEVE in not believing, they don't believe that believing will do any good, so they just DON'T believe... Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Thu Feb 23 02:29:05 1989 Hey, if one could overcome the logic one would be God, right? Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Feb 24 14:24:22 1989 The difference beetween Christianity and other religions is that other religions don't claim that the nonbelievers will go to hell.. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Fri Feb 24 15:00:27 1989 I seem to recall that Allah promises paradise to those who are followers so the fact that they claim paradise as a reward by default mean they espouse a not so good alternative to non-followers. Any religion that advocates sometype of spiritual reward in the afterlife for adherence to doctrine by default also advocates LESSER rewards, even punishment for those who are not adherents. Even Hinduism condemns "less than good or perfect people" to go through another life on earth! By many people's standards, this would indeed be HELL. So don't give me this crap about Christianinty being the only belief system with a "hell". They may not give it the same name, but the principle is still the same. I might point out that Christianity is the only faith that GUARENTEES Eternal life to everyone on one simple condition, faith. I mean, we don't even make it hard. Other religions demand strict adherence to rules and rituals and if you break one, you're damned forever. Jesus offers full forgivness for everything and makes heaven a GIFT, something that can't be earned by "being good", but just RECEIEVED with a "Gee thanx God". How hard can that be??!¿ Fire Escape Name: Topper #79 Date: Fri Feb 24 19:24:23 1989 I believe FE has a more relaxed attitude as to what is required to reach God than what is taught by many preachers. They constantly tell you that the devil is ready to pull you off the road to heaven. It must be nice to have a religion were anything you do can prior to death can be banished away if one in the end believes "Gee thanks God". If god is trying to pull all the religions into one, why did he let them be seperated, or did the devil pull those unfortunates of the narrow road to heaven. It may be easy to utter the words Gee thanks God but to really believe in them (Which an eternal diety should be able to discern) is quiet another matter. Not as easy as it sounds® Just a thought ..® Topper Name: Cheech Wizard #12 Date: Sat Feb 25 21:43:38 1989 Dearest Fire Escape, I wish to take exception to some of the points that you have made. First, the Muslim religion worships GOD. Your Christian God is nominally the same as the one Muslims worship. Allah is just another name for the same godhead. By refering to God as Allah, you are subtly saying, "My God is much, much better than their lowly 'Allah,' who doesn't even have the right name." Second, Christianity does require strict adherence to certain rules. Foremost is the one that God, through Jesus, is the center of one's life; the perfect model; etc. Also, in the more structured Christian religions, most notably Catholisism, there are rituals and sacraments that beleivers must follow. These include Baptism, First Communion [or Confirmation], and the Last Rites. Name: Cheesehead #73 Date: Sun Feb 26 01:27:56 1989 Actually, for Roman Catholics (of which I am one) it is not First Communion [or Confirmation]. It is First Communion AND Confirmation. First Communion is usu. around the 2nd grade and Confirmation during high school. Just wanted to clear that up. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Sun Feb 26 11:58:44 1989 I was going to point those out. Those are rules and regulations. People are always arguing about if you're not baptized, well, hey, tough...sure, other religions will say "Well, you won't get any of the good life like the true faithful do..." but then they don't say "so you'll burn for eternity in hellfire and writhe in pain, agony, and other scary words like that." Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Mon Feb 27 15:10:54 1989 I would also like to know, FE, what is Hell for if you never get to leave? Doesn't really help much then, does it? The only purpose is to keep you on the straight and narrow now, ain't it? So why don't we just execute everyone who ever breaks the law? Don't forget to respond to the others eather! Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Mon Feb 27 16:04:16 1989 Rules, Regulations and rituals.. Are a nice trimming on the cake if that is what turns you onto God, but please show me IN THE BIBLE where it says "YOU MUST be Baptised to have eternal life", "YOU MUST go to Church on Sunday to have eternal life.", "YOU MUST take communion to have eternal life." Etc..In fact, I would like to see any ONE verse from the New Testament that says you can EARN your salvation by any ACT, DEED, RITUAL." I personally in all the years I have been a believer, have NEVER read anything that said such. Ephesians 2:8,9 says, "It is by GRACE you have been saved, through FAITH - and this is NOT from yourselves, it is the FREE GIFT of God -NOT by good works, so that no one can brag." Good works proceed out of love and gratitude for the salvation that you have ALREADY received by faith alone. They can never gain one favor with God. We are powerless to impress God over our Sin, Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man (1st Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 9:15). Hell is prepared mainly for Satan and his minons, who are immortal beings, they can not be destroyed, only bound and isolated to prevent harm to the redeemed. Many scholars contend that our soul being made in the image of God is also immortal, though our body will die, our soul is indestructable and therefore we must exist eternally either with God (heaven) or without God (Hell). I share this view as does most of Christiandom® - Fire Escape Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Mon Feb 27 21:52:48 1989 Souls: Can you find any evidenc for it in the Bible, though, FE? How do you know that you just don't wink out of existence, ***POOOF!!***? Quotes please. Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Wed Mar 01 17:05:16 1989 On the Afterlife: "Man is destined once to die, and after that to face judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) Jesus said in Luke 20:36 in reference to those who are ressurected from the dead on the last day, "they can no longer die, they are like the angels, they are God's children, children of the ressurection." John was given a vision of the final state of things in Revelation chapter 20. Chapter 20, verses 10-15 describe a fiery pit that Satan and those who have rejected God are cast into. Verse 10 describes their torment as lasting "forever, day and night." when this is compared to what Jesus described in Mark 9:43-49, it seems that God is isolating these people in a place that is very unpleasant by any stretch of the imagination. Why would the place be described in "eternal, forever and ever" type ways, if the people put into it are not going to survive? It would seem a bit of an OverKill to make a place where the Fire is NEVER quenched and where they are tormented day and night forever and ever if they aren't going to be alive. Doen't you think so? Annihilation doesn't mesh with other biblical quotes that stress the imortality of each soul. Death as perceived and understood by the Jews meant "separation". So to say one is "dead" is to say he is SEPARATED from his physical body. Spiritual death is a separation from God. We are all Spiritually dead (does this mean we don't exist? No) but until we are given spiritual birth in Christ (united with God), we remain separate from God, or "dead". I abhor pulling verses out of their contexts, but any serious study of the New Testament confirms the reality of judgment and ETERNAL consequences. Fire Escape Name: Cheesehead #73 Date: Thu Mar 02 08:36:37 1989 I have a Bible on mù shelf, not so much for any spiritual reasons, but because it was my father's when he was confirmed. Just because I see something written in there, does not mean thatit is reality. I just finished reading Tommyknockers by Steven King over break and that doesn't mean that there is actually a spaceship buried in the backwoods of Maine. The Bible is wonderful literature and in some places a historical reference, but I wouldn't say it confirms the reality of anything you say. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Thu Mar 02 15:33:28 1989 Interesting I'm just about to start reading Tommyknockers.... Name: Parlous #82 Date: Thu Mar 02 20:57:24 1989 Realitty isn't real! New age is! Mote it be.... Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Fri Mar 03 03:00:59 1989 The Above: Ack! Name: Fire Escape #65 Date: Fri Mar 03 14:12:00 1989 Maybe if I "visualize" hard enough... the "new age" will go away................Nope, didn't work. Oh well. Actually, it's not a "new" age at all, but just a revival of OLD age mystery religion and Eastern thought rehashed in Westernease. HC asked me to support my belief from the Bible, so I did so. That is why I referenced it. You don't have to believe the Bible is true or right, that's your right. But at least allow me my right to refer to it, as I DO believe in it. - Fire Escape. Name: Gryphon #21 Date: Fri Mar 03 14:58:55 1989 FE, Okay, then support your belief WITHOUT the Bible® Please? With sugar? Name: Headless Chicken #6 Date: Fri Mar 03 16:40:23 1989 Belief: I grant you it. I just don't buy it; the price is too high. Name: Metalhead #7 Date: Fri Mar 03 18:20:10 1989 Yes, you have your right to use the Bible as evidence whenever you please. Just keep in mind that that document has little or no credibility with a significant portion of this board's users, and using it as evidence will not prove anything to us. ­ METAL HEAD Name: Jk #18 Date: Sat Mar 04 13:02:33 1989 I'm still emotionally scarred from being computerless for a week, so I'M stayin' out of it..® But Gryph, read dat 'un...good book. (Wasn't THAT trite?)